Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The debate about whether and to what extent longevity and milestone stats matter will never be settled. It's come up for the millionth time with the retirement of Posey. I tend to agree that JAWS is a pretty good compromise.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The debate about whether and to what extent longevity and milestone stats matter will never be settled. It's come up for the millionth time with the retirement of Posey. I tend to agree that JAWS is a pretty good compromise.

I agree, IF you are talking HOF-worthiness, because 7/10 years is a pretty good measure for an average HOFer. Cumulation stats are less and less valuable as players take better care of themselves and play longer. If Koufax was playing today he'd be on a strict pitch count and would last longer but would have cumulative stats a lot more like Kershaw's.

[G1911]

Whether it’s the best 4 years (a number selected solely with the goal of making Koufax try and win), best 5 years, best 7 years, best decade, or best career value, it doesn’t seem to matter for LHP. The math-centered answer relative to context is still Lefty Grove. His margin of victory changes, but he still comes out on top with any of them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Whether it’s the best 4 years (a number selected solely with the goal of making Koufax try and win), best 5 years, best 7 years, best decade, or best career value, it doesn’t seem to matter for LHP. The math-centered answer relative to context is still Lefty Grove. His margin of victory changes, but he still comes out on top with any of them.

I would think on best 4 or 5 years Unit would be way up there?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would think on best 4 or 5 years Unit would be way up there?

Do not forget about Greg Maddux

4 years 92, 93, 94, 95 with 4 Straight Cy Young Awards

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Do not forget about Greg Maddux

4 years 92, 93, 94, 95 with 4 Straight Cy Young Awards

I thought this was about lefties.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought this was about lefties.

Brain fart. My Bad.
Maddux is a Righty.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would think on best 4 or 5 years Unit would be way up there?

Up there, but not quite there. Using Baseball Reference WAR, though frankly I'm not a big fan of WAR:

Top 4:
Grove: 11.2, 10.4, 10.4, 9.8 = 41.8
Johnson: 10.7, 10.1, 9.1, 8.6 = 38.5
Koufax: 10.7, 10.3, 8.1, 7.3 = 36.4


Top 5
Grove: 11.2, 10.4, 10.4, 9.8, 9.5 = 51.3
Johnson: 10.7, 10.1, 9.1, 8.6, 8.4 = 46.9
Koufax: 10.7, 10.3, 8.1, 7.3, 5.7 = 42.1



These are the methods trying to punish Grove and reward other favored candidates, but Grove still wins. I'd put Johnson and Spahn 2nd and 3rd. Spahn obviously fairs poorly in top 4 or 5 season only ranking as his great value was his consistent excellence and not short greatness. My takeaway from the first 630 posts last year was that there is no math-based rational argument for Koufax at all, but the emotional ties to him are very strong for a great many.

[cjedmonton]

Originally Posted by G1911

Up there, but not quite there. Using Baseball Reference WAR, though frankly I'm not a big fan of WAR:

Top 4:
Grove: 11.2, 10.4, 10.4, 9.8 = 41.8
Johnson: 10.7, 10.1, 9.1, 8.6 = 38.5
Koufax: 10.7, 10.3, 8.1, 7.3 = 36.4


Top 5
Grove: 11.2, 10.4, 10.4, 9.8, 9.5 = 51.3
Johnson: 10.7, 10.1, 9.1, 8.6, 8.4 = 46.9
Koufax: 10.7, 10.3, 8.1, 7.3, 5.7 = 42.1

These are the methods trying to punish Grove and reward other favored candidates, but Grove still wins. I'd put Johnson and Spahn 2nd and 3rd. Spahn obviously fairs poorly in top 4 or 5 season only ranking as his great value was his consistent excellence and not short greatness. My takeaway from the first 630 posts last year was that there is no math-based rational argument for Koufax at all, but the emotional ties to him are very strong for a great many.

Perhaps the most succinct and accurate statement in the entire thread. There is no place for math or rationale in the heart of a fan(atic).

[Carter08]

Minor comment is I think Spahn is slightly overlooked in these conversations. He’s just on the fringe of them but should be right in the mix in my opinion. Guy gave up a solid 3 years for service in his early going too. More than anything though this thread has made me realize how good Grove was.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My top few:

Grove
Spahn
Koufax
Kershaw
Johnson
Carlton

Don't really care what order as long as Grove is first.

[Mark17]

Let's first agree that the answer to the question is, of course subjective. There is not a definitive answer that can be derived from statistical or any other kind of analysis. In the end, it is opinion.

Having said that, I completely agree with this. Just my opinion:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My top few:

Grove
Spahn
Koufax
Kershaw
Johnson
Carlton

Don't really care what order as long as Grove is first.