Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

Isn't it odd hat his great performances happened during the chemical enhancement era? He was dominant during 1995 to 2004 at the height of the steroid use.I know runs and home runs were way up during this period and yet he, clemens, martinez put up some ungodly numbers. We know Clemens was a cheater. Maybe the whole story has not come out.

I wouldn't put it past anyone.


However, in Johnson's case it was simply a matter of harnessing his control....that is all well documented. I'm not going to bother going through that entire history, both story-wise or statistical wise.

He always had the 100 MPH heat.

Unless steroids made him grow six inches from 1992 compared to 1995?

However, if you bring the steroids up and Johnson was NOT doing them(which it is very unlikely he was, and there is zero suspicion of him), and many of his pitching peers were? That only makes Johnson even more impressive!

For instance, Johnson lost the Cy Young to Clemens in 2004! I appreciate you bringing that up. Johnson gets another Cy Young award...according to your premise.

He also came in second to Clemens in 1997. There is another Cy Young for the Big Unit!

[cammb]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

I wouldn't put it past anyone.


However, in Johnson's case it was simply a matter of harnessing his control.

He always had the 100 MPH heat.

Unless steroids made him grow six inches from 1992 compared to 1995?

However, if you bring the steroids up and Johnson was NOT doing them, and many of his pitching peers were? That only makes Johnson even more impressive!

For instance, Johnson lost the Cy Young to Clemens in 2004! I appreciate you bringing that up. Johnson gets another Cy Young award...according to your premise.

He also came in second to Clemens in 1997. There is another Cy Young for the Big Unit!

As one baseball writer put it, "we don't vote for Clemens but we accept the accomplishments of other power pitchers that time". You like comparisons, so I like to compare him to Barry Bonds. Both got better with age.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

As one baseball writer put it, "we don't vote for Clemens but we accept the accomplishments of other power pitchers that time". You like comparisons, so I like to compare him to Barry Bonds. Both got better with age.

I'm personally undecided how to treat Clemens or Bonds. If you disregard steroids they are the best pitcher and best hitter ever respectively. However, I have no interest in getting into that debate

However, if you are going to ding Bonds and Clemens, then that just makes guys like Randy Johnson shine even brighter. Johnson gets a couple more Cy Youngs. I'll take this debate every day for the rest of the summer though. Maybe not every day...


I do want to point out, that as much as I am hailing Johnson over Koufax, I do agree that Koufax gets dinged a little too much by many sabermatricians for his home ballpark. It is definitely a factor, but the degree of which is indeed still up for debate.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

I'm personally undecided how to treat Clemens or Bonds. If you disregard steroids they are the best pitcher and best hitter ever respectively. However, I have no interest in getting into that debate

However, if you are going to ding Bonds and Clemens, then that just makes guys like Randy Johnson shine even brighter. Johnson gets a couple more Cy Youngs. I'll take this debate every day for the rest of the summer though. Maybe not every day...


I do want to point out, that as much as I am hailing Johnson over Koufax, I do agree that Koufax gets dinged a little too much by many sabermatricians for his home ballpark. It is definitely a factor, but the degree of which is indeed still up for debate.

You keep assuming your boy was clean. During that period no one gets a pass That's all I got to say. I will leave it up the the readers. lol.

[HRBAKER]

Don't buy the if one did they all did - everyone's a cheater.
I think we seek ways to excuse the behavior of those we admire.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

You keep assuming your boy was clean. During that period no one gets a pass That's all I got to say. I will leave it up the the readers. lol.

Like I said, I don't put it past anyone.

However, if they were all doing it like you said, then isn't it a level playing field??


As it stands, the Big Unit looks like the least likely candidate to be doing PED's, with zero credible suspicions, let alone evidence.

Clemens has pretty good evidence that he was deep in PED.

Therefore, based on your assertions of not counting PED accomplishments, that gives Randy Johnson two more Cy Young awards.

Did Johnson grow six inches from 1992-1995 or gain 8 MPH?? If not, then those attributes are what made him what he was. Once he was able to repeat his mechanics and developed control...he became the best lefty in the history of baseball, both at as his peak and for his career

And no, Lefty Grove cannot match those attributes either. There is zero evidence to support placing Lefty Grove on a pitchers mound over Randy Johnson. Johnson has him beat in every measurable attribute you look for in a pitcher, as well as the 'intangibles' needed to succeed as a professional player. There would be zero point in taking a pitcher who is ten inches smaller, throws slower, has lesser break on his pitches, and has lesser command....assuming their mental and competitive capacities are the same(and Johnson obviously proved his mettle there).

As for 'my boy', I'm beholden to no other human. I'm simply looking from an objective view point, backed with knowledge, logic, and common sense.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

And no, Lefty Grove cannot match those attributes either. There is zero evidence to support placing Lefty Grove on a pitchers mound over Randy Johnson. Johnson has him beat in every measurable attribute you look for in a pitcher, as well as the 'intangibles' needed to succeed as a professional player. There would be zero point in taking a pitcher who is ten inches smaller, throws slower, has lesser break on his pitches, and has lesser command....assuming their mental and competitive capacities are the same(and Johnson obviously proved his mettle there).

How do you know this?

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How do you know this?

How do I know how tall each player was? Pretty simple.

Lefty Grove did not throw 100MPH. He did not throw as hard a Bob Feller.

The break on the pitches is pretty clear and has a strong correlation to how much torque is put on the ball.

I also know that the average fastball has risen over time.

I know that in the 20's and 30's there were several players who were swinging 40oz plus bats and having no problem getting around on the ball. That tells you that the ball is simply not coming in as fast. That many players cannot do that against 100 MPH pitches when you also have to guard against a breaking pitch.

However, if anyone puts Grove ahead of Johnson...It's close enough that I'm not going to bother debating it.

[G1911]

Yes, Johnson pitching against a bunch of steroided up hitters in an offensively dominated era should count against him.