Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

You keep assuming your boy was clean. During that period no one gets a pass That's all I got to say. I will leave it up the the readers. lol.

Like I said, I don't put it past anyone.

However, if they were all doing it like you said, then isn't it a level playing field??


As it stands, the Big Unit looks like the least likely candidate to be doing PED's, with zero credible suspicions, let alone evidence.

Clemens has pretty good evidence that he was deep in PED.

Therefore, based on your assertions of not counting PED accomplishments, that gives Randy Johnson two more Cy Young awards.

Did Johnson grow six inches from 1992-1995 or gain 8 MPH?? If not, then those attributes are what made him what he was. Once he was able to repeat his mechanics and developed control...he became the best lefty in the history of baseball, both at as his peak and for his career

And no, Lefty Grove cannot match those attributes either. There is zero evidence to support placing Lefty Grove on a pitchers mound over Randy Johnson. Johnson has him beat in every measurable attribute you look for in a pitcher, as well as the 'intangibles' needed to succeed as a professional player. There would be zero point in taking a pitcher who is ten inches smaller, throws slower, has lesser break on his pitches, and has lesser command....assuming their mental and competitive capacities are the same(and Johnson obviously proved his mettle there).

As for 'my boy', I'm beholden to no other human. I'm simply looking from an objective view point, backed with knowledge, logic, and common sense.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

And no, Lefty Grove cannot match those attributes either. There is zero evidence to support placing Lefty Grove on a pitchers mound over Randy Johnson. Johnson has him beat in every measurable attribute you look for in a pitcher, as well as the 'intangibles' needed to succeed as a professional player. There would be zero point in taking a pitcher who is ten inches smaller, throws slower, has lesser break on his pitches, and has lesser command....assuming their mental and competitive capacities are the same(and Johnson obviously proved his mettle there).

How do you know this?

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How do you know this?

How do I know how tall each player was? Pretty simple.

Lefty Grove did not throw 100MPH. He did not throw as hard a Bob Feller.

The break on the pitches is pretty clear and has a strong correlation to how much torque is put on the ball.

I also know that the average fastball has risen over time.

I know that in the 20's and 30's there were several players who were swinging 40oz plus bats and having no problem getting around on the ball. That tells you that the ball is simply not coming in as fast. That many players cannot do that against 100 MPH pitches when you also have to guard against a breaking pitch.

However, if anyone puts Grove ahead of Johnson...It's close enough that I'm not going to bother debating it.

[cammb]

It’s funny how you continue to ignore the suspicion of steroid use. From ages 36 to 39 head pitching like Koufax (the peak of steroid use) He began to decline soon after with sky high eras, coincidence?

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

It’s funny how you continue to ignore the suspicion of steroid use. From ages 36 to 39 head pitching like Koufax (the peak of steroid use) He began to decline soon after with sky high eras, coincidence?

If you have credible evidence, I'm all ears.

Currently, you are the only person I've ever heard accusing Randy Johnson of steroid use. But I like your idea of giving Randy Johnson two more Cy Young awards because Clemens was doing steroids. Me personally, I still don't want to knock Clemens, because if like you said, "they all did steroids", then they all played on the same level playing field.

If you have something solid, put it forward.

Then where do you draw the line with Koufax getting elbow injections etc...? Who is to say if there were steroids in those injections? Seems like a slippery slope.

Your statement above doesn't make a lot of sense though. Please rephrase it. After age 36-39 you are saying he had sky high ERA's?

Are his ERA's supposed to stay the same until age 60?

Age 40 his ERA was 2.60.

He went back to the American League after that, which will cause a jump in his raw ERA.

From age 41-45 his ERA in the AL was 4.28. ERA+ 104.


Nothing sky high there, it was better than average.

Actually, the natural decline would show the OPPOSITE of steroid use. When you eclipse age 40, your skills tend decline soon. He was also injured in those years.

But I like your premise saying that injuries cost Randy Johnson elite ERA's until age 60. That makes his case even better as the best ever. That makes him the best athlete ever.

You are grasping...but if you believe Randy Johnson did steroids, put forth the evidence. More power to you.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

It’s funny how you continue to ignore the suspicion of steroid use. From ages 36 to 39 head pitching like Koufax (the peak of steroid use) He began to decline soon after with sky high eras, coincidence?

It's funny how you ignore my requests that you tell us which of Grove's stats are "questionable."

[G1911]

Lefty Grove’s stats are made up by jock sniffers and Randy Johnson was a steroid abusing cheater because... he was alive when some other people did?

How is this the actual argument for Koufax? This is the stupidest argument one could possibly make. Can we move on to applying some rationality and considering the actual candidates instead of this garbage?

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

Lefty Grove’s stats are made up by jock sniffers and Randy Johnson was a steroid abusing cheater because... he was alive when some other people did?

How is this the actual argument for Koufax? This is the stupidest argument one could possibly make. Can we move on to applying some rationality and considering the actual candidates instead of this garbage?

I think Tony is more interested in a "mike drop" moment instead of a cohesive debate. Maybe he's a politician?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by G1911

Lefty Grove’s stats are made up by jock sniffers and Randy Johnson was a steroid abusing cheater because... he was alive when some other people did?

How is this the actual argument for Koufax? This is the stupidest argument one could possibly make. Can we move on to applying some rationality and considering the actual candidates instead of this garbage?

If you say it’s stupid, then it must be.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by G1911

Lefty Grove’s stats are made up by jock sniffers and Randy Johnson was a steroid abusing cheater because... he was alive when some other people did?

How is this the actual argument for Koufax? This is the stupidest argument one could possibly make. Can we move on to applying some rationality and considering the actual candidates instead of this garbage?

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

It's funny how you ignore my requests that you tell us which of Grove's stats are "questionable."

Groves stats as well as others in that era and before are suspect because we have no idea how records were kept, how lenient scoring was and most of all the hitting Just wasn’t that great. I hope that my opinion satisfies your craving as to my meaning of suspect.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cammb

Groves stats as well as others in that era and before are suspect because we have no idea how records were kept, how lenient scoring was and most of all the hitting Just wasn’t that great. I hope that my opinion satisfies your craving as to my meaning of suspect.

Once again, this is easily proven to be completely false garbage. We do know how records were kept. The majors have excellent documentation of this period, for every single league game. What game are the records incorrect or incomplete for? Just one, solitary example.

How was scoring more lenient in 1930 than in 1965?

Hitting WAS great. Far better than during Koufax's period. We can see this in the stats. It's basic math; many more runs were scored in an average game in 1930 than in 1965. This has been explained about 300 times in this thread.

You did not say they were "suspect", you actually said his stats were made up by jock sniffers (implying that God Sandy's are not). But fine, we'll go with suspect.


Have any evidence for your charges about Johnson? Whatsoever? No?


Can we please find a rational argument for the views advanced? We've had logical cases presented for Grove and Johnson. I guess logic is for jock sniffers. This is even more ridiculous than basing a case upon anecdotes one likes. Denying easily verifiable facts is absurd.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

Groves stats as well as others in that era and before are suspect because we have no idea how records were kept, how lenient scoring was and most of all the hitting Just wasn’t that great. I hope that my opinion satisfies your craving as to my meaning of suspect.

Holy Crazy Train! No idea how records were kept?? It wasn't the dark ages. So you discount Walter, Cy, Hornsby, Ott, Cobb and Wagner? And that non-great hitting includes those bums Ruth and Gehrig, but they probably sucked because the scorekeepers were so lenient.

This from they guy who says Koufax must be the best of all time because he's the youngest HOFer, cause all the other guys ruined their careers by playing longer

In all seriousness, you might want to avoid discussions on baseball history.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

How do I know how tall each player was? Pretty simple.

I didn't question the height difference.

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

Lefty Grove did not throw 100MPH. He did not throw as hard a Bob Feller.

On what do you base this conclusion?

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

The break on the pitches is pretty clear and has a strong correlation to how much torque is put on the ball.

Johnson was a foot taller than Camilo Pascual, who was a 20 game winner a couple of times and was famous in his day for his curveball. How can you say Johnson's curve was better than Pascual's, or Grove's?

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

I also know that the average fastball has risen over time.

Well, since most Olymipic records, especially track and swimming, do not hold up well over time, I guess we can simply conclude the best athletes are the recent ones, period. Fastballs are getting faster, as are runners, and hitters are getting stronger, etc.

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

I know that in the 20's and 30's there were several players who were swinging 40oz plus bats and having no problem getting around on the ball. That tells you that the ball is simply not coming in as fast. That many players cannot do that against 100 MPH pitches when you also have to guard against a breaking pitch.

Back in the day, most hitters, with a few notable exceptions, didn't hold the bat down at the end of the knob, to swing for the fences. They choked up a bit, had shorter, more compact swings, and let the weight of the bat do the work, as opposed to relying on their arm/bat speed to do so.