Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[jggames]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

I'm not sure I understand your comment here.

The labelling on the 1910 COUPON cards with the QUOTES ...."COUPON" is because this was American Tobacco Company's new brand in 1910
when these cards were printed, and this brand was not yet an officially Registered TRADEMARK.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

Hi Jason

When the ATC Monopoly was broken up, here's how it went. Please note that the COUPON brand is included in this decision.
Now, tell me that COUPON was not already a marketed brand by 1910 ?

American Tobacco Co. Divesture (May 1911)....proceedings started circa 1910.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Can't we cease this nit-picking, meaning-less crap. And try to have a more meaningful exchange. Damn it, once again a "hi-jacked" thread by the usual suspects ! !


Continuing......my Mickey Doolan brings us to 26 different 1910 COUPON cards on display so far in this thread. This number represents 38 % of this set.

So, there are many more to show. So, let's see some more of these rare gems.


.


Note the hint of cardboard residue from the cigarette carton this card was pasted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Really Ted? you "hi-jacked" your own thread when you posted this.

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK guys....).I am re-playing this thread for those of you who aren't members of the : " The 1910 COUPON club " .

As you read the posts in this thread, you will see that a fair number of serious collectors in this forum agree that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON
set are actually a sub-set of the T206.
I will spare you the usual gobble-de-gook that goes with this debate, instead I will reprise and emphasize a significant factor that sets the timeline
of when this set of cards were printed and issued.

Circa 2007, Brian Weisner and I had an interesting conversation regarding the Major League subjects in this set. Brian pointed out that the majority
of them were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs (like the 138 other 350-only Series T206's. After researching this....sure enough 39 of the 48
subjects are POLAR BEAR No-Prints.
The Six Super-Prints and Willett were printed with POLAR BEAR. This is logical, since these seven subjects were extended into the 350/460 Series.
Engle and LaPorte (350-only subjects) are the other two printed with POLAR BEAR.

What does this signify to us. Well American Litho did not introduce the POLAR BEAR backs until the 350-only series press runs circa Summer 1910.
Therefore, the absence of POLAR BEAR backs on the majority of these Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON set tells us this series of cards preceded
the POLAR BEAR print runs.
So this is my argument for the 1910 COUPON timeline being being Spring/Summer 1910. It makes sense to me. Especially since the subsequent 250
subjects in the T206 set were all printed with POLAR BEAR backs.

Because, if those "nay-sayers" with their contention that this set was issued after 1912, then explain to us why the lettering in the captions of these
cards are NOT blue ?


My hypothetical 48-card sheet of the 1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (reflects an early 350)-only Series sheet)





Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker......Boston NL
Bender (trees)......A's
Byrne......St Louis NL
Campbell......Cincinnati
Chance (portrait-yellow)......Chicago NL
Charles......St Louis NL
Chase (blue portrait)......New York AL
Chase (dark cap)......New York AL
Cobb (red portrait)......Detroit
Cree......New York AL
Donovan (throwing)......Detroit
Doolan (fielding)......Phillies
Dubuc......Cincinnati
Dunn......Brooklyn
Engle......New York AL
Evers (bat-yellow sky)......Chicago NL
Fletcher.....New York NL
Hartsel......A's
Hoffman......St Louis AL
Howell (portrait)......St Louis AL

Huggins (portrait).....Cincinnati
Huggins (hands at mouth)......Cincinnati
Hunter......Brooklyn
Killian (portrait)......Detroit
Knabe......Phillies
LaPorte......New York AL
Lennox......Brooklyn
Marquard (portrait)......New York NL
Mathewson (dark cap)......New York NL
Marshall......Brooklyn
McBride......Washington
McElveen......Brooklyn
McIntyre.......Detroit
Mitchell.......Cincinnati
Mowery......Cincinnati
Myers (bat)......New York NL
Myers (fielding)......New York NL
Paskert.......Cincinnati
Rhoades (hands at chest)......Cleveland
Rossman......Detroit

Schmidt (portrait)......Detroit
Starr......Boston NL
Street (portrait)......Washington
Summers......Detroit
Sweeney.......Boston NL
Thomas......A's
Willett......Detroit
Wilson......Pittsburg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

His timeline is wrong at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. And, the T213-3 card's captions confirm that some subjects
were printed as late as 1919. For example...... Chase was traded to the NY Giants on February 19, 1919





The most significant error by Burdick is overlooking that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are NOT printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Lithographic printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[brianp-beme]

This is the only one I can possibly post as one that I can claim as one that I own.

Brian (making the simple statement a thing of the past)

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

This is the only one I can possibly post as one that I can claim as one that I own.

Brian (making the simple statement a thing of the past)

Hey Brian

Condition is immaterial, we take them anyway we can get them.

OK, you got us to the 40% mark of this 68-card set.

Thanks for posting.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

Well, he was mistaken at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. The T213-3 identifies players whose
captions indicate their teams as late as 1919.

The most significant error by Burdick is not realizing that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are not printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Litho printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Attack me if you want Ted but you keep posting this as fact when there is no proof of the 1910 date.

I have questioned where the 1910 date came from several times and you keep changing your answer. You originally said the 1909 newspaper clipping but it was pointed out that it didn't say anything about baseball pictures.

Jeremy then posted he had an ad about baseball pictures inserted in Coupon cigarettes but he posted later that he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu Ad.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

.





Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919




The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

You keep coming up with different reasons for the 1910 dating of the Type1 but you ignore the Journal that has all every other t206 brand with the dates
they were packed and shipped but not Coupon.

[RCMcKenzie]

I missed this thread the first time around 3 years ago, and just went back and read the earlier posts. Here is Schmidt series 1 and 2. The type 1 is kind of rough, the type 2 was on my want-list for a long time before finding it at auction last year. Cool card with no D and Mobile...

[Pat R]

Maybe this will convince you how important the information in the journal is
Ted.

As I said before the Old Mill ad from 1909 was found for many years it was
said that the printing/distribution of the Southern Leaguers began sometime
in the spring/summer of 1910.

Here's the thread about that ad

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Old+Mill

If you look at one of the Old Mill pages in the journal it coincides with the
dates on all of the ads.
img454.jpg

The Old mill ad I found was in an August 1909 newspaper and the Journal
shows they started packing and shipping in July 1909
img454 - Copy.jpg

The Old mill ads that were previously known started in March 1910 and the journal shows they started packing on March 15 1910 and shipping on March 17 1910
img454 - Copy (2).jpg

In my thread I stated the last ad in the newspapers for the Old Mills was December 9 1910
and the journal shows they discontinued the Old Mills on December 14 1910.
img454 - Copy (3).jpg

Originally Posted by Pat R

It has long been thought that the southern league players were printed
with Hindu backs during the 150 series and that they were printed with Old Mill
backs in the early printing of the 350 series but that might not be the case.

The first known Hindu ad that showed pictures of but didn't mention southern
leaguers ran on August 13 1909.
Attachment 330858

The first known ad that mentioned the southern leaguers ran on August 23 1909.
Attachment 330859

I recently discovered this Old Mill ad that ran for a week in a Tampa
newspaper beginning on August 14 1909.
Attachment 330860

It seems that Eli Witt was quite an entrepreneur who had ties
with R.J. Reynolds.
Attachment 330861Attachment 330862

Originally Posted by Pat R

I feel like a jackass after my last post about the Old Mill ads. I visit
and use t206resource all the time and I've visited the advertisement
section several times but until last night I never noticed the galleries for the
Sporting Life, Hindu, Old Mill and Piedmont ads.

The Old mill gallery has 26 different ads.
http://t206resource.com/Old%20Mill%20Ad%20Gallery.html

Jim and Tim did a great job on the ads and I would like to
add some new information to theirs.

All 26 of the ads have a matching ad that was printed in Texas newspapers
with the exact picture but different wording and all the Texas paper ads
state that the packs contain Texas League baseball pictures

All the Texas Ads are on the right
Attachment 331067
Attachment 331068
Attachment 331069
Attachment 331070
Attachment 331071
Attachment 331072
Attachment 331074

The earliest Texas ad I found appeared in the Austin Statesman on Sept. 7 1910 the first non Texas ad appeared in a District of Columbia and Virginia
newspaper on March 1 1910. The last Texas ad appeared in the El Paso Herald on Dec 9 1910 and the last non Texas ad was in a Henderson NC paper on
Sept. 29 1910.

After the Dec. 9 I didn't find any Old Mill ads until this one
that appeared in the Galvelston daily news on Feb 14 1911
that made no mention of baseball pictures.
Attachment 331075