Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[Pat R]

Now were jumping to another thread?

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK guys.....I am re-playing this thread for those of you who aren't members of the " The 1910 COUPON club " .

As you read the posts in this thread, you will see that a fair number of serious collectors in this forum agree that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON
set are actually a sub-set of the T206.
I will spare you the usual gobble-de-gook that goes with this debate, instead I will reprise and emphasize a significant factor that sets the timeline
of when this set of cards were printed and issued.

Circa 2007, Brian Weisner and I had an interesting conversation regarding the Major League subjects in this set. Brian pointed out that the majority
of them were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs (like the 138 other 350-only Series T206's. After researching this....sure enough 39 of the 48
subjects are POLAR BEAR No-Prints.
The Six Super-Prints and Willett were printed with POLAR BEAR. This is logical, since these seven subjects were extended into the 350/460 Series.
Engle and LaPorte (350-only subjects) are the other two printed with POLAR BEAR.

What does this signify to us. Well American Litho did not introduce the POLAR BEAR backs until the 350-only series press runs circa Summer 1910.
Therefore, the absence of POLAR BEAR backs on the majority of these Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON set tells us this series of cards preceded
the POLAR BEAR print runs.
So this is my argument for the 1910 COUPON timeline being being Spring/Summer 1910. It makes sense to me. Especially since the subsequent 250
subjects in the T206 set were all printed with POLAR BEAR backs.

Because, if those "nay-sayers" with their contention that this set was issued after 1912, then explain to us why the lettering in the captions of these
cards are NOT blue ?


My hypothetical 48-card sheet of the 1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (reflects an early 350)-only Series sheet)





Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker......Boston NL
Bender (trees)......A's
Byrne......St Louis NL
Campbell......Cincinnati
Chance (portrait-yellow)......Chicago NL
Charles......St Louis NL
Chase (blue portrait)......New York AL
Chase (dark cap)......New York AL
Cobb (red portrait)......Detroit
Cree......New York AL
Donovan (throwing)......Detroit
Doolan (fielding)......Phillies
Dubuc......Cincinnati
Dunn......Brooklyn
Engle......New York AL
Evers (bat-yellow sky)......Chicago NL
Fletcher.....New York NL
Hartsel......A's
Hoffman......St Louis AL
Howell (portrait)......St Louis AL

Huggins (portrait).....Cincinnati
Huggins (hands at mouth)......Cincinnati
Hunter......Brooklyn
Killian (portrait)......Detroit
Knabe......Phillies
LaPorte......New York AL
Lennox......Brooklyn
Marquard (portrait)......New York NL
Mathewson (dark cap)......New York NL
Marshall......Brooklyn
McBride......Washington
McElveen......Brooklyn
McIntyre.......Detroit
Mitchell.......Cincinnati
Mowery......Cincinnati
Myers (bat)......New York NL
Myers (fielding)......New York NL
Paskert.......Cincinnati
Rhoades (hands at chest)......Cleveland
Rossman......Detroit

Schmidt (portrait)......Detroit
Starr......Boston NL
Street (portrait)......Washington
Summers......Detroit
Sweeney.......Boston NL
Thomas......A's
Willett......Detroit
Wilson......Pittsburg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I'm curious what the other "1910 Coupon club" members opinion is of the information in the journal.

The reason for the brown caption could be because the majority of the tobacco cards have a brown/black caption.

I'm still amazed that someone as interested in the tobacco sets as you hasn't looked at this journal and all the information in it.

Since you brought up the Polar Bears again and I had said in the past much like the Coupons they seem to stand out from the other t206 brands (Demmitt and O'Hara, scrap tobacco in pouch form, in my research they don't match up with the other brands as far as print flaws) here's some information in the journal.

Several t206 brands including Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, and Old Mill state in the packing & shipping instructions all states except Ohio.

Here's one of the Sweet Caporal pages that says 60 days for all states except Ohio.
img436.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm curious what the other "1910 Coupon club" members opinion is of the information in the journal.

I have already talked with some of them, and every one of them said your journal proves nothing. Furthermore, the absence on it of a major T206 back like
POLAR BEAR discredits it completely as being any kind of reliable timeline gauge. Other than indicating it was generated prior to the POLAR BEAR print run.


The reason for the brown caption could be because the majority of the tobacco cards have a brown/black caption.


I'm still amazed that someone as interested in the tobacco sets as you hasn't looked at this journal and all the information in it.

How many times have I told you that I LOOKED it over ! ! And, it is useless information, as far as I am concerned.


Since you brought up the Polar Bears again and I had said in the past much like the Coupons they seem to stand out from the other t206 brands (Demmitt and O'Hara, scrap tobacco in pouch form, in my research they don't match up with the other brands as far as print flaws) here's some information in the journal.

Pat, you are smarter than this. This remark is totally incongruous regarding these two brands.



Several t206 brands including Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, and Old Mill state in the packing & shipping instructions all states except Ohio.

Here's one of the Sweet Caporal pages that says 60 days for all states except Ohio.

Pat

My research regarding the subjects on my simulated sheet of the 1910 COUPON cards indicates that these T206s were the first group of 350-only Series cards.
If so, this places them in the timeline of Spring 1910.

Several players in this group of 48, were in transition. For example......

Byrne traded from St. Louis NL to Pittsburgh.....Aug. 1909

Mowrey traded from Cinc. to St Louis Natl.....Aug. 1909

Rossman retired.....Sept. 1909

And, there are others that were in transition about this time.

For the most part, American Lithographic (ALC) was pretty darn good about reflecting team changes on the T206 cards. NO WAY would ALC depict Byrne & Mowrey
still with their old teams, nor Rossman (who had retired back in 1909) in your hypothetical 1913 - 1915 scenario.

In fact in the T215-1 set, Byrne's cards are captioned with St Louis and also with Pittsburgh.

Speaking about your "1913 - 1915 scenario", how come you didn't answer my question to you in my previous post regarding.....
Where is the BLUE INK CAPTIONS on the 1910 COUPON cards if (as you suggest) they were printed much later than 1910 ? ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

My research regarding the subjects on my simulated sheet of the 1910 COUPON cards indicates that these T206s were the first group of 350-only Series cards.
If so, this places them in the timeline of Spring 1910.

Several players in this group of 48, were in transition. For example......

Byrne traded from St. Louis NL to Pittsburgh.....Aug. 1909

Mowrey traded from Cinc. to St Louis Natl.....Aug. 1909

Rossman retired.....Sept. 1909

And, there are others that were in transition about this time.

For the most part, American Lithographic (ALC) was pretty darn good about reflecting team changes on the T206 cards. NO WAY would ALC depict Byrne & Mowrey
still with their old teams, nor Rossman (who had retired back in 1909) in your hypothetical 1913 - 1915 scenario.

In fact in the T215-1 set, Byrne's cards are captioned with St Louis and also with Pittsburgh.

Speaking about your "1913 - 1915 scenario", how come you didn't answer my question to you in my previous post regarding.....
Where is the BLUE INK CAPTIONS on the 1910 COUPON cards if (as you suggest) they were printed much later than 1910 ? ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

First of I did give you one possibility for the brown caption even though I have no idea how that proves they were printed in 1910 and secondly
you're contradicting yourself with the Byrne caption. He's depicted on one of his type 3 coupons with St. Louis a team he hadn't played on since 1909.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are Bobby Byrne's 3 Coupon cards. He has one in each series. Many of the 1919 Type 3 cards are tribute cards of players that had retired. In many cases like Bridwell, who managed Houston in 1919, there is no team designation given. My grandfathers grew up in Central Louisiana and East Texas, and both were Cardinals fans. Since these cards were distributed in an area with Cardinals fans, the producers decided to include a tribute card in 1919 for Byrne, who retired in 1917. Ames and Miller are also in the 1919 set as Cardinals and played for St. Louis in 1919.

[Pat R]

Rob, I used Byrne as an example because Ted pointed him out, there
are a lot of inaccurate team designations in the t206 set

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

Rob, Ted's stance is the type 1's were printed in 1910 and I feel there is
sufficient evidence that they weren't printed during the t206 printings.

I don't think it matters in either opinion but Byrne was with Pittsburgh
in 1910 he was traded from St. Louis to Pittsburgh on August 19th 1909.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.