Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

This is what I'm waiting to see I asked where the 1910 dating came from
and I was told a newspaper clipping but no one could show a coupon ad
that mentioned the cards and I couldn't find where one was posted. All of the ads that I've seen are Old Mill and Hindu. There are
26 different Old Mill ads that I know of and each of them has one that mentions Texas League players and one that Doesn't.

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[Pat R]

The ads came out small here's a larger version of one.

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[tedzan]

Tony and Jeremy

I really appreciate your posts. Both of you have amplified on a lot of factors which I have presented here in my earlier posts.

Jeremy....it would be great if you can show us your New Orleans Times Picayune papers with the Coupon Advertisements (1909-1910 )
depicting different Sportsmen scenarios.

Thanks again,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tony and Jeremy

I really appreciate your posts. Both of you have amplified on a lot of factors which I have presented here in my earlier posts.

Jeremy....it would be great if you can show us your New Orleans Times Picayune papers with the Coupon Advertisements (1909-1910 )
depicting different Sportsmen scenarios.
Thanks again,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I agree 100% if such an ad exist I would change my opinion and say they
should be included in the T206 set and they were just another T206 rule
breaker.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I agree 100% if such an ad exist I would change my opinion and say they
should be included in the T206 set and they were just another T206 rule
breaker.

Hey Guys - Sorry, been away at Volleyball Tourneys the past serveral days... I still need to read and catch up on this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned... The Federal Leaguers seem to be key to the time difference in the Type 1 and Type 2's, correct !? Burdick seem to get the Type 2 dating correct as that set is loaded with Federal leaguer's (Federal League 1913-15) and a perfect example is Al Bridwell 1914 Type 2 card - St. Louis Terriers Fed league team. Bridwell is also featured in the Type 2 set with a Nashville card having spent time bouncing around SL a bit. There are other examples in the Type 2 set of Minor League/Federal Leaguer's who are not featured in the Type 1 set as well. To me it seems fairly obvious the 4 Nashville players featured in ATC/American Litho 1909-11 are Bay, Bernhard, Perdue, and Ellam. Those 4 Nashville players are absent in the Type 2 and 3 sets as well as the obvious blue lettering which distinguishes the 2&3 sets from the Type 1. Two Clear examples that Type 1 were most likely not printed in and around the time of the Type 2 and 3 sets.

Pat - Thanks for all the advertisement examples of OM & Hindu... I think that may be what I have buried in my collection. I will dig it up at some point and verify... Too big to scan, and I haven't looked at it in years... Regardless of an advertisement, sure that is clear proof, but Coupon Type 1 cards are so rare, I doubt they had a Advertising campaign like the other ATC brands. While it would be nice to have a clearly dated advertisement as proof, I think its clear by the Federal league example aforementioned and the 4 Nashville players mirroring the T206 4 Nashville players that its more likely the Coupons were produced around 1909-11 than around 1913-19 like the Type 2 and 3's with blue lettering and glossy/thicker cardboard. It's only a matter of time as type 1's lean way more towards the 1910 date, than they do any other date imho.

Thanks, J

[Pat R]

Thanks for the reply Jeremy. My reasons for excluding them from the
T206 set is similar to your reasons for separating them from the Type 1 and 2's.

When I look at the T213-1's they stand out from the way any of the T206
backs were printed.

The T213-1's have three different groups represented in the 68 cards.

I randomly grabbed one of each from my collection as an example.

img840.jpg


Excluding Piedmont which was used on every card in the set with the exception
of Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis these three cards are not found with the same
back on any of the T206 backs and the same thing is true for any combination
of one card from each group.

Then you have the minor league players. All of the 350 series backs have minor league players and most of them have over 40% but there isn't a
single minor league player in the T213-1's.

Other people have said that it looks like they reused some of the T206 plates/artwork after the printing of the T206's and I feel the same way
when I look at the group of cards used for the T213-1's.

The following is pure speculation... We know from many of the old newspaper articles that inserting the "baseball pictures" was a big success at the
time. I see the T213-1's as a cheap trial promotion. Print them with the old T206 plates on thinner stock and see how it goes. They find it's
a success so they have them printed on thicker cardboard and decide to change the captions as a cheap way to put their own brand stamp on them
without having to make a bunch of new plates.

[Pat R]

Here's a couple of Hindu Ads both picture Southern League players but only
one mentions them.

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