2021 HOF Ballot

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by triwak

THIS!! I have never understood how keeping oneself in playing condition, and continuing to PRODUCE well enough to remain on a big league roster, is somehow a bad thing??? It's a results oriented game, and if you can't make the 25-man, you're out. Compilers are success stories.

Most all-time records are a result of "compilers". Sure, some hold other records as well. But it takes compiling numbers to be the "All-time xxxxx leader".

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Most all-time records are a result of "compilers". Sure, some hold other records as well. But it takes compiling numbers to be the "All-time xxxxx leader".

And it’s really hard to be a compiler if you’re not very good.

Besides, 20 years of 120 hits and a .240 BA doesn’t a HOFer make!

[packs]

I think it's possible to be a compiler and not be all that great. Jamie Moyer is a good example. He has 269 wins and a 4.25 career ERA and gave up the most home runs in major league history while pitching for 25 seasons. But he's still number 35 all time on the win list.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I think it's possible to be a compiler and not be all that great. Jamie Moyer is a good example. He has 269 wins and a 4.25 career ERA and gave up the most home runs in major league history while pitching for 25 seasons.

Nobody is trying to put Moyer in the Hall, but being 3% better than the league's ERA for 25 years and 4,000 innings in a low-inning era is a marvelous achievement.

[packs]

I'm not saying he's a HOFer. I'm just pointing out there are guys who hang around and put up some big numbers in the end.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not saying he's a HOFer. I'm just pointing out there are guys who hang around and put up some big numbers in the end.

Guys like that are rare, but sure make baseball fandom more fun.

Interestingly, BB-R has Moyer at 49.8 WAR in over 4,000 IP. Santana at 51.7 in roughly half the innings total.

[G1911]

I remain unclear how a 127 ERA+ and the 2nd best among all retired pitchers in K/W ration is a compiler. Schilling's IP is on the lower end of the HOF scale. If he is a compiler, one cannot come up with more than maybe 20-25 pitchers with good careers that are not compilers.

[Misunderestimated]

To me Schilling is a HOFer based on his Peak and his Post-season performance. His wins are low even for the era. He is one of the great post-season pitchers 11-2 - ERA 2.23 -- 4-1 World Series ERA 2.06 in 7 starts.... Great numbers given when he pitched. All and all he's probably better on the merits than most of inducted Starting Pitchers

He's not getting in because of the "character clause." He courted the problem with outspoken statements against the writers (electors)... According to Jay Jaffe's marvelous Cooperstown CasebookSchilling has long public feuds with big times sportswriters dating back to his career... when he didn't get votes he immediately claimed he was not getting in because he was an outspoken conservative.....Before the 2016 election he retweeted something that advocated lynching journalists (he later claimed it was "sarcasm")... Before he offered his "sarcasm" explanation/excuse some journalists belonging to the BBWAA (i.e. voter) had written that this had jettisoned Schilling's candidacy under the character clause. Schilling's vote dropped in 2017...

I wrote above that I would vote for him on the "merits" of his career. Still, I see why writers who like to use the "character clause" to keep players in or out for other things, like presumed PED use.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

To me Schilling is a HOFer based on his Peak and his Post-season performance. His wins are low even for the era. He is one of the great post-season pitchers 11-2 - ERA 2.23 -- 4-1 World Series ERA 2.06 in 7 starts.... Great numbers given when he pitched. All and all he's probably better on the merits than most of inducted Starting Pitchers

He's not getting in because of the "character clause." He courted the problem with outspoken statements against the writers (electors)... According to Jay Jaffe's marvelous Cooperstown CasebookSchilling has long public feuds with big times sportswriters dating back to his career... when he didn't get votes he immediately claimed he was not getting in because he was an outspoken conservative.....Before the 2016 election he retweeted something that advocated lynching journalists (he later claimed it was "sarcasm")... Before he offered his "sarcasm" explanation/excuse some journalists belonging to the BBWAA (i.e. voter) had written that this had jettisoned Schilling's candidacy under the character clause. Schilling's vote dropped in 2017...

I wrote above that I would vote for him on the "merits" of his career. Still, I see why writers who like to use the "character clause" to keep players in or out for other things, like presumed PED use.

There's also the whole ripping off the state of Rhode Island for millions of dollars thing, too.

I agree - Schilling is being kept out because of his personality/politics/etc.

[Tabe]

I take issue with the notion that Schilling was never elite. He was most certainly elite in 2001 and 2002. WAR of 8.8 and 8.6 those two years. Led the league in FIP and WHIP one year. 316 Ks with 1.1 BB/9 - that's elite, my friends. And the following year, he put up 6.0 WAR while missing a third of the season. And then 7.8 for Boston in 2004. So 31.2 WAR in 3-2/3 seasons.

He most definitely got up into elite territory.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Tabe

There's also the whole ripping off the state of Rhode Island for millions of dollars thing, too.

I agree - Schilling is being kept out because of his personality/politics/etc.

Yeah...that....sucked.

Unfortunately, the folks in charge around here didn't take my suggestion to make him sign autographs for $20 a pop until he paid off the debt...

...while chained upside down from the statue of Roger Williams in Providence.

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Yeah...that....sucked.

Unfortunately, the folks in charge around here didn't take my suggestion to make him sign autographs for $20 a pop until he paid off the debt...

...while chained upside down from the statue of Roger Williams in Providence.

As a fellow Rhode Islander, schilling is a dirty word in this state...

[G1911]

Yadier's traditional numbers don't yell Hall of Fame, and he's a below league average bat (OPS+ of 98) for a career in an era which has seen numerous above league average bats at catcher. WAR, which heavily rewards being a catcher and alive as well as defense is awfully low too, only 40.1. He is surprisingly similar to Jason Kendall statistically.

Posada has a significantly better bat. I would vote for Mauer. Posey was on track but looks like he may have burned out at 31.

[Mike D.]

The "feels like" thing reminds me of a line of thinking I was running through the other night..."when a player becomes a Hall of Famer in most folks mind". We all know about guys who "felt like a hall of famer" in their 20's but then faded...the two big examples often given are Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy.

But some guys have weird paths (like Schilling). The guy I was thinking about specifically was Adrian Beltre. He's pretty much a consensus "yes" these days, maybe a first ballot guy.

But man, was he a LOT of "things" in his long career.

• A young phenom (in majors @ 19)
  
• A solid if unspectacular young player
  
• A guy who had a monster year
  
• A big free agent signing
  
• A disappointment (LA years)
  
• A guy who signed a one-year "pillow contract"
  
• A guy who put on a great run in his 30's
  
• A 3,000 hit sure thing Hall of Famer

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

The "feels like" thing reminds me of a line of thinking I was running through the other night..."when a player becomes a Hall of Famer in most folks mind". We all know about guys who "felt like a hall of famer" in their 20's but then faded...the two big examples often given are Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy.

But some guys have weird paths (like Schilling). The guy I was thinking about specifically was Adrian Beltre. He's pretty much a consensus "yes" these days, maybe a first ballot guy.

But man, was he a LOT of "things" in his long career.

• A young phenom (in majors @ 19)
  
• A solid if unspectacular young player
  
• A guy who had a monster year
  
• A big free agent signing
  
• A disappointment (LA years)
  
• A guy who signed a one-year "pillow contract"
  
• A guy who put on a great run in his 30's
  
• A 3,000 hit sure thing Hall of Famer

Beltre is a good one.

Another guy I "feel like a HOFer" toward is Yadier Molina. Nothing crazy sticks out stats wise from a counting perspective but he's sure feels like HOFer to me having watched him play.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by packs

Beltre is a good one.

Another guy I "feel like a HOFer" toward is Yadier Molina. Nothing crazy sticks out stats wise from a counting perspective but he's sure feels like HOFer to me having watched him play.

I don't disagree on Molina. I struggle with him a bit since his stats don't really scream "Hall of Famer", but when you mix in the defense, the intangibles like leadership and team success....I could see him making it.

Catcher is pretty underrepresented in the hall...will be interesting to see what happens with a lot of recent catchers...Posada, Posey, Mauer, and Molina.