2021 HOF Ballot

[Seven]

Originally Posted by conor912

There is zero way Papi doesn’t get in. Zero.

But if Ortiz gets in Bonds and Clemens should get in. You can't say "well these cheaters are okay, but these other cheaters aren't" We can't have it both ways.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Seven

But if Ortiz gets in Bonds and Clemens should get in. You can't say "well these cheaters are okay, but these other cheaters aren't" We can't have it both ways.

There’s the “should be” and then there’s the “is”. I realize Papi’s name has swirled in PED rumors for years, but this is a prime example of how likability plays such a huge role. Clemens and Bonds are ornery assholes and always have been. Ortiz is a God in a lot of baseball circles, including for heroics off the field and in the community. I’m not saying he gets first ballot, but he gets in, no doubt. Also, if he wasn’t a lock before Edgar got in, he certainly is now that the DH has been legitimized by the Hall.

I can’t speak to Papi’s PED involvement, but don’t be shocked if we do “get it both ways” and he gets in while Bonds and Clemens don’t. It wouldn’t be the first time a media darling has coasted in while other equally deserving players have had to fight tooth and nail for their plaque. It’s a (wildly) imperfect system.

[G1911]

Selig isn't blameless, but didn't he propose penalties in 1994 that the Player's Union shot down? What was he supposed to do exactly before the changing winds and public pressure forced the players into testing?


I do not understand how one can allege that not only did Gwynn use steroids (which is possible), but that going from 4 to 16 home runs (an 11 home run gap at the low end of the scale which has happened without steroids many times in baseball history) is the same thing as Barry Bonds setting records and is proof he did. Also, Gwynn had a similar homer year before the example used here, in 1986 when he hit 14. Apparently he used steroids in 1986, 1997, 1998 and possibly 1999 but not the rest of his career.


I too suspect Ortiz will be inducted as a popular fan favorite regardless of his test. He alone among those for whom there is some significant evidence of use seems to be given a complete free pass by the media and fans for steroids. He should be held to the same standard as the other players who used before the formal penalties like Bonds (whether that's ignore it and let them all in, or punish it and keep them out), but I suspect he will not be held to the same standard.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by G1911

I do not understand how one can allege that not only did Gwynn use steroids (which is possible), but that going from 4 to 16 home runs (an 11 home run gap at the low end of the scale which has happened without steroids many times in baseball history) is the same thing as Barry Bonds setting records and is proof he did. Also, Gwynn had a similar homer year before the example used here, in 1986 when he hit 14. Apparently he used steroids in 1986, 1997, 1998 and possibly 1999 but not the rest of his career.

For those wondering about one-year spike in players hitting home runs, check out 1970 some time. Jim Hickman, Cito Gaston, Bert Campaneris amongst others had a spike. Heck Tommy Harper had a 30/30 season that year and was never year 30 homers again. One year homer sometimes spike. Oh, and Gwynn mentioned he wanted to have more power that year. And check out Ichiro Suzuki in batting practice during his career. He would routinely put balls in the upper decks.

Rich

[Popcorn]

If Larry Walker got in how does Tod Helton not get in also.. numbers are identical.

[Ricky]

Ortiz tested positive once for “something”. .. where is the evidence that he was a PED user?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Ricky

Ortiz tested positive once for “something”. .. where is the evidence that he was a PED user?

When he tested positive once for "something".

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by G1911

When he tested positive once for "something".

Nope. Players have had positive tests for taking cough medicine with the wrong ingredients. There’s no evidence that Ortiz took PEDs. Unless you think his roly-poly body is evidence.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Popcorn

If Larry Walker got in how does Tod Helton not get in also.. numbers are identical.

Walker was a defensively excellent outfielder who played a significant number of games with other teams and performed well there (1991 and 1994 especially he was fantastic, and even his final year in St. Louis at 38 posted a 130 OPS+). Helton was a 1B who never played a game for another team. I support Helton, but Walker's case appears stronger.

[Tabe]

To be clear, I said Gwynn fit the profile - didn't say he used.

As for his power spike, it wasn't one year - it was multiple. And he more than quadrupled his output (4x as many in fewer games). His previous high was 14 - in 33 more games. I'm just saying he had a BIG jump in production during his old man years, the hallmark of a steroid user.

[Mike D.]

Walker career WAR - 72.7
Helton career WAR - 61.8

I expect a lot of the difference is driven by defense and base running.

I personally think both belong in the HOF.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Tabe

To be clear, I said Gwynn fit the profile - didn't say he used.

As for his power spike, it wasn't one year - it was multiple. And he more than quadrupled his output (4x as many in fewer games). His previous high was 14 - in 33 more games. I'm just saying he had a BIG jump in production during his old man years, the hallmark of a steroid user.

I don't think this premise makes much sense at all. Why would Gwynn start using PEDs at 37 years old? He had nothing left to prove. Every other major PED user DID have something to prove. Whether that be the ridiculous home run chase for Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire or Roger Clemens' refusal to accept he was toast at 30 years old.

But why would Gwynn go his whole HOF career as one of the greatest hitters of all time and then at 37 decide to use steroids to hit 17 home runs?

Isn't it just a little more likely the ball got livelier in 1997, just before the home run chase one year later?

[todeen]

Originally Posted by conor912

Also, if he wasn’t a lock before Edgar got in, he certainly is now that the DH has been legitimized by the Hall.

My dad is an Edgar fan. He was worried about him getting into the HOF. I told him, "He'll get in because the writers want to legitimize the role of DH before he gets on the ballot." I agree, Ortiz wil get into the Hall. I have assumed that Bonds, Clemens, and ARod would max out their chances on the ballot but would eventually get in. They have to get in to clear the path for more favorable players like Ortiz.

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