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[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I get very tired of the argument that’s this type of action is “woke” white people deciding what offends someone. I feel that this argument fails for two main reasons

1. It puts the burden on the aggrieved minority group to fight ever battle. These groups have enough burden and cannot be expected to fight every slight and injustice. These groups should not be expected to explain every insult and educate about ever wrong.

2. It misses the point that we as the majority group should be offended by the action. We may not have taken the original action but that doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye to the wrong and not act. We should be embarrassed about what has been done and fix it. Let’s all stop pretending that Indian names were historically meant to honor in a real way. Most of these names were created on the teens- the thirties. They were not meant to honor real people struggling to prosper. They were put in place to recognize the image of the Indian as the noble savage, the cowboys and Indians view, the dime novel image. This is caricature not reality, and you can never honor with caricature. This was not a country respecting its native inhabitants. This was a country that was sending young Indian children to school to “save the man, kill the Indian. ” We tried to destroy their language and their culture. We did not take these actions but we need to stop misrepresenting what the actions really meant. I am not imposing offense on others, I am offended at what has been done in our name.

How does this make the name "Indians" offensive?

You are way over-analyzing this, going back in history, finding grievances, and trying to say that now the very word "Indians" shouldn't be used. Do you want to cut it out of books too?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How does this make the name "Indians" offensive?

You are way over-analyzing this, going back in history, finding grievances, and trying to say that now the very word "Indians" shouldn't be used. Do you want to cut it out of books too?

Haven't they done the same for African Americans who were offended by names Europeans called them to let them know they were lesser of people in their eyes? What about Chinese or Japanese or LBGTQ? Why can't we treat each other with respect as equals?

They are not Indians. An Indian is a person from India.

[Leon]

Personally I* think changing the name of the Indians is a crock of sh!@. There is no way that is offensive to anyone unless they are looking to be offended. Always the victim, should be the motto for 2020.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Leon

Personally I* think changing the name of the Indians is a crock of sh!@. There is no way that is offensive to anyone unless they are looking to be offended. Always the victim, should be the motto for 2020.

And yet 40+ years ago teams began changing their team name from Indians to something else because no way that was offensive to anyone? Just seemed like something to do?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

And yet 40+ years ago teams began changing their team name from Indians to something else because no way that was offensive to anyone? Just seemed like something to do?

If I get called an American should I be offended? Sorry, it won't ever fly with me. If everyone would just get a job, as Judge Judy (my hero) says, all would be good. Instead you have everyone getting offended at anything because they have been taught to play the victim card. I think I should be offended that anyone disagrees with me >....

Or if not offended by that just give me a few minutes to find something else to be offended by. Crock of crap if you ask me.

[Throttlesteer]

There's a certain amount of power to be had if you can consistently move the goal posts. Societies always think they've finally go things figured out, only to have later generations gasp in abhorrence to their barbaric perspectives.

Fifty years from now, they'll be burning our cards in a pile due to these idols being womanizers, bigots', communists, capitalists, etc...

Hide your Ruths, hide your Hornsbys, hide your Cobbs.....they're coming for you!!!!!!!!

[packs]

Originally Posted by Leon

Personally I* think changing the name of the Indians is a crock of sh!@. There is no way that is offensive to anyone unless they are looking to be offended. Always the victim, should be the motto for 2020.

If you read the statement from the team it will tell you exactly why the change was made and what the opinions of the stakeholders were:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

This was the response from the National Congress of American Indians:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in Indian Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by packs

If you read the statement from the team it will tell you exactly why the change was made and what the opinions of the stakeholders were:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

This was the response from the National Congress of American Indians:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in Indian Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

Will the National Congress of American Indians be changing their name?

After all, Indians are from India.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Will the National Congress of American Indians be changing their name?

After all, Indians are from India.

That idea is not incorrect. Historically speaking, Columbus thought he was in India when he discovered what are now known as Native Americans. But it's really not an argument that is necessary to oppose.

If your name is Ed and I insist on calling you Dave, won't it rub you the wrong way?

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by packs

That idea is not incorrect. Historically speaking, Columbus thought he was in India when he discovered what are now known as Native Americans. But it's really not an argument that is necessary to oppose.

If your name is Ed and I insist on calling you Dave, won't it rub you the wrong way?

And then name a baseball team the Daves.

Would people be offended if they renamed them the Cleveland Buckeyes?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Will the National Congress of American Indians be changing their name?

After all, Indians are from India.

You completely missed the point of the statement.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

You completely missed the point of the statement.

I don't need to get points here. I have a 23 year old adopted son who is Kiowa. He has a good relationship with his biological family and we talk often. I get the points from the source.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by rats60

They are not Indians. An Indian is a person from India.

This line sounds like it came from a brainwashed millennial. American Indians refer to themselves as Indians...ok? It's not even offensive to THEM.

[Shoeless Moe]

I think they should change the name of the state Indiana while they're at it.

I get offended every time I drive thru that state.

Mostly 'cuz of the odor.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

This line sounds like it came from a brainwashed millennial. American Indians refer to themselves as Indians...ok? It's not even offensive to THEM.

Paul Dolan found enough that were offended by the name that he is changing his team's name.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Paul Dolan found enough that were offended by the name that he is changing his team's name.

A very vocal minority of morons seems to rule this weak and quite often embarrassing country.

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

A very vocal minority of morons seems to rule this weak and quite often embarrassing country.

Yes, but only for a couple more weeks

[campyfan39]

Give me a break

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

Yes, but only for a couple more weeks

[wondo]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

Yes, but only for a couple more weeks

Touche'

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

A very vocal minority of morons seems to rule this weak and quite often embarrassing country.

So they were morons who weren't allowed to own property? So they were morons who were denied employment? So they were morons who were denied government assistance? So they are morons because they won't be ok with being enslaved in poverty? So they are morons because they aren't ok with being mocked and demeaned? Being the majority doesn't give them the right to treat others as lesser humans.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by rats60

So they were morons who weren't allowed to own property? So they were morons who were denied employment? So they were morons who were denied government assistance? So they are morons because they won't be ok with being enslaved in poverty? So they are morons because they aren't ok with being mocked and demeaned? Being the majority doesn't give them the right to treat others as lesser humans.

Comparing the spoiled losers and insufferable complainers of today with people of the past that were ACTUALLY oppressed and greatly suffered is insulting to those poor, long-gone individuals.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by rats60

So they were morons who weren't allowed to own property? So they were morons who were denied employment? So they were morons who were denied government assistance? So they are morons because they won't be ok with being enslaved in poverty? So they are morons because they aren't ok with being mocked and demeaned? Being the majority doesn't give them the right to treat others as lesser humans.

What does any of that have to do with the name of a baseball team. And what tribe do you belong to?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

Haven't they done the same for African Americans who were offended by names Europeans called them to let them know they were lesser of people in their eyes? What about Chinese or Japanese or LBGTQ? Why can't we treat each other with respect as equals?

They are not Indians. An Indian is a person from India.

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

Agreed. So go about your life and let the Cleveland baseball team owner do the same.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

I'm going to post the NCAI's response to the name change announcement one more time in case you didn't get a chance to read it above:

This was the response from the National Congress of American Indians:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in Indian Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

That should quell any general notions about the Native American response or preference.

I'm going to post the NCAI's description for their organization again as well:

The National Congress of American Indians, founded in 1944, is the oldest, largest and most representative American Indian and Alaska Native organization serving the broad interests of tribal governments and communities.

[wondo]

I'm amazed that so many here criticize Native Americans for being offended by Cleveland's nickname. Easy to pass judgement when it is the other guy.

Imagine if the Tigers changed their name to the Detroit Douchebags? Plenty of folks here would take it as a personal affront.

[campyfan39]

classy post

Originally Posted by wondo

I'm amazed that so many here criticize Native Americans for being offended by Cleveland's nickname. Easy to pass judgement when it is the other guy.

Imagine if the Tigers changed their name to the Detroit Douchebags? Plenty of folks here would take it as a personal affront.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

classy post

Chris,

Not particularly - just not cloaked in judgmental entitlement as some others I've read.

[Case12]

I like the idea of returning to Cleveland baseball legacy...

[Case12]

Originally Posted by Case12

I like the idea of Cleveland baseball legacy...

But don't think Boston should ever return to Bean Eaters.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm going to post the NCAI's response to the name change announcement one more time in case you didn't get a chance to read it above:

This was the response from the National Congress of American INDIANS:

“Today’s announcement represents a monumental step forward in INDIAN Country’s decades-long effort to educate America about what respect for tribal nations, cultures, and communities entails, and how sports mascots like the ‘Indians’ prevent our fellow Americans from understanding and valuing who Native people are today, what makes us unique, and the many contributions we make to this country,”

That should quell any general notions about the Native American response or preference.

I'm going to post the NCAI's description for their organization again as well:

The National Congress of American INDIANS, founded in 1944, is the oldest, largest and most representative American INDIAN and Alaska Native organization serving the broad interests of tribal governments and communities.

Don't they know Indians are from India?

[TUM301]

All right all right, from now on it`s the Cleveland Redskins. Problem solved !

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Don't they know Indians are from India?

Might there be anything else of interest there?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Might there be anything else of interest there?

The fact some can use the name "Indian" without criticism for doing so, and some cannot.

If they take offense at Wahoo Sam, that's a whole different discussion.

[t206fix]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

Why is it the Indian name that gets you this riled up? Something as trivial as the name of a baseball club? Were you this upset when the Devil Rays changed their name? Hmm, something about that Indian name... See, if the Notre Dame Fightin' Irish changed their name tomorrow, most people wouldn't give a damn. They'd say sweet, the Fightin' Devil Rays... and life would go on.

Again, it's not the term "Indian" that's questionable to us. We've been referring to ourselves as Indians for years. It's the fact that we are not a mascot. It is not alright for you to dress up in Native gear, paint your faces yelling out war whoops to mock us. We are not fine with you putting offensive cartoon caricatures on your clothing and wearing it around demeaning our appearances. We've been fighting that battle for many years, so don't pin this on anyone else. This has been the Indian, Native American, American Indian agenda for many years ... have you been listening?. This is not what Native culture is, nor has it ever been that. Many Native cultures to this day are still fighting for basic survival. The simple fact that Native children are still seeing these depictions should make most people say, enough is enough. It's time for this shit to go.

When it comes down to it, it's really a questions of power. When minority groups rise up against the majority, the standard line is "I don't get why you are so offended, we've been doing it this way for years. Why are you playing the victim card? If we give you this, what are you going to ask for next." I'm calling bullshit. 2020 was a shitty year, but one thing it did do was get rid of those racist mascots.

Were you fine with the Redskins name? What other minority race would you be ok with this happening to? Please, fill in the blank for me... The Cleveland ___________

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Again, it's not the term "Indian" that's questionable to us. We've been referring to ourselves as Indians for years. It's the fact that we are not a mascot.

This point seems obvious to some. To others, it's like you're speaking in Martian.

I do have a question for you, Tony: What's your take on the Spokane Indians team name?

[Fred]

Change it to the Spokane Native Americans

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This point seems obvious to some. To others, it's like you're speaking in Martian.

I do have a question for you, Tony: What's your take on the Spokane Indians team name?

The point is clear to many of us.

American Indians are not offended by the term Indians, and usually prefer it to Native American (As someone else pointed out, they often prefer their particual tribe). Native American was a white liberal term applied to them, not one they chose.

The issue is not whether or not the word Indians is offensive, including to American Indians, mostly because it isn't.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by drcy

The point is clear to many of us.

American Indians are not offended by the term Indians, and usually prefer it to Native American (As someone else pointed out, they often prefer their particual tribe). Native American was a white liberal term applied to them, not one they chose.

The issue is not whether or not the word Indians is offensive, including to American Indians, mostly because it isn't.

Is this like the African American community preferring to be called black rather than the PC term without a color reference.

I'm so sick of PC. Use common sense, it's not difficult to not be an idiot when speaking about people, races , cultures, etc.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Why is it the Indian name that gets you this riled up? Something as trivial as the name of a baseball club? Were you this upset when the Devil Rays changed their name? Hmm, something about that Indian name... See, if the Notre Dame Fightin' Irish changed their name tomorrow, most people wouldn't give a damn. They'd say sweet, the Fightin' Devil Rays... and life would go on.

I'm not riled up. I am in my home, bored, watching yet another group of people playing victim. As I said above, if we're talking about the mascot/logo of Wahoo Sam, smiling with the big teeth, I would liken that to blackface and agree it is insulting. Here in MN we have the Vikings, and many people here, including me, are Scandinavian. But the logo and mascot aren't deemed offensive: the logo is a dignified looking guy with blonde hair, and the mascot is a guy who dresses up in a Viking outfit at games. So it isn't seen as demeaning to anyone.

So we agree the caricatures are objectionable. What I don't find objectionable is the word, and concept, of Indians as the name of a team.

Many cities, lakes, rivers are named after Indian words. American Indians are an important part of this country's culture and history, both recorded and pre- Columbus (in other words, pre- written history.) Many Indians in MN have famously gotten along quite well with European settlers, particularly the Ojibwe. In fact, their wars were against other Indians. This, from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe

Through their friendship with the French traders (coureurs des bois and voyageurs), the Ojibwe gained guns, began to use European goods, and began to dominate their traditional enemies, the Lakota and Fox to their west and south. They drove the Sioux from the Upper Mississippi region to the area of the present-day Dakotas, and forced the Fox down from northern Wisconsin. The latter allied with the Sauk for protection...

The Ojibwe were part of a long-term alliance with the Anishinaabe Odawa and Potawatomi peoples, called the Council of Three Fires. They fought against the Iroquois Confederacy, based mainly to the southeast of the Great Lakes in present-day New York, and the Sioux to the west. The Ojibwa stopped the Iroquois advance into their territory near Lake Superior in 1662. Then they formed an alliance with other tribes such as the Huron and the Odawa who had been displaced by the Iroquois invasion. Together they launched a massive counterattack against the Iroquois and drove them out of Michigan and southern Ontario until they were forced to flee back to their original homeland in upstate New York. At the same time the Iroquois were subjected to attacks by the French. This was the beginning of the end of the Iroquois Confederacy as they were put on the defensive. The Ojibwe expanded eastward, taking over the lands along the eastern shores of Lake Huron and Georgian Bay.

In 1745, they adopted guns from the British in order to repel the Dakota people in the Lake Superior area, pushing them to the south and west. In the 1680s the Ojibwa defeated the Iroquois who dispersed their Huron allies and trading partners. This victory allowed them a "golden age" in which they ruled uncontested in southern Ontario......

When Indians claim victimhood because European settlers "took their land," my question is, who did the Indians take their land from?

[tedzan]

Here's a suggested new name that even the "politically correct" mob may agree with

CLEVELAND ROCK-N-ROLLERS

The "R-n-R" Hall of Fame is a great site to see.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here's a suggested new name that even the "politically correct" mob may agree with

CLEVELAND ROCK-N-ROLLERS

"May" is the key word here.

This person could possibly disagree: https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion...j6y-story.html

"Black people have been so thoroughly erased from rock that it’s even considered “white music” by our own community. Black rock performers are novelties; visitors in our own house."

"Rock music — like so many other things in this country — has been influenced for decades by systemic racist forces to erase Black originators from the form in an effort to make it more palatable for white consumers."

Not making a comment either way, just food for thought.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Again, it's not the term "Indian" that's questionable to us. We've been referring to ourselves as Indians for years. It's the fact that we are not a mascot.

I wonder if real-life cowboys get offended by the Oklahoma State Cowboys mascot? Hmmm...something tells me that they don't.

[packs]

Since there is still some debate on why the name was changed, I will post the exact explanation from the owner of the team again:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by packs

Since there is still some debate on why the name was changed, I will post the exact explanation from the owner of the team again:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

Understood, Packs. I think many of us read that as we would all of the great things Exxon is doing to preserve nature and make the world a better place. As previously pointed out, it's a business. The recent wave of virtue signaling and corporate "social responsibility" is a well-calculated marketing decision. Executives (including the Cleveland baseball club) understand their target market has changed and they need to lure the zoomers and millennials to sell tickets.

I also agree, all people deserve respect and its always worth having the conversation. I personally feel Chief Wahoo is inappropriate and he could go away altogether. Teams update their logos all the time. Unless the term is blatantly derogatory, I'm not sure you'll ever get consensus on whether Indian, Native American, Indigenous, etc is more appropriate. But a small segment of society (that isn't generally part of the group in question) consistently takes it upon themselves to lecture and dictate everyone elses perspective. I believe a lot of the comments above reflect the exhaustion of these self-righteous, self-appointed moral compasses of the masses.

Cleveland can be whatever they want to be.