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[t206fix]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it okay with you if Indians refer to themselves as Indians? Because many of them do, including in organizational names.

Or would you, in your enlightenment, also tell Native Americans that they should not refer to themselves as Indians?

I wish more people would go about their lives with a "live and let live" attitude, rather than a superior, "everybody has to change as I decree" attitude.

Why is it the Indian name that gets you this riled up? Something as trivial as the name of a baseball club? Were you this upset when the Devil Rays changed their name? Hmm, something about that Indian name... See, if the Notre Dame Fightin' Irish changed their name tomorrow, most people wouldn't give a damn. They'd say sweet, the Fightin' Devil Rays... and life would go on.

Again, it's not the term "Indian" that's questionable to us. We've been referring to ourselves as Indians for years. It's the fact that we are not a mascot. It is not alright for you to dress up in Native gear, paint your faces yelling out war whoops to mock us. We are not fine with you putting offensive cartoon caricatures on your clothing and wearing it around demeaning our appearances. We've been fighting that battle for many years, so don't pin this on anyone else. This has been the Indian, Native American, American Indian agenda for many years ... have you been listening?. This is not what Native culture is, nor has it ever been that. Many Native cultures to this day are still fighting for basic survival. The simple fact that Native children are still seeing these depictions should make most people say, enough is enough. It's time for this shit to go.

When it comes down to it, it's really a questions of power. When minority groups rise up against the majority, the standard line is "I don't get why you are so offended, we've been doing it this way for years. Why are you playing the victim card? If we give you this, what are you going to ask for next." I'm calling bullshit. 2020 was a shitty year, but one thing it did do was get rid of those racist mascots.

Were you fine with the Redskins name? What other minority race would you be ok with this happening to? Please, fill in the blank for me... The Cleveland ___________

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Again, it's not the term "Indian" that's questionable to us. We've been referring to ourselves as Indians for years. It's the fact that we are not a mascot.

This point seems obvious to some. To others, it's like you're speaking in Martian.

I do have a question for you, Tony: What's your take on the Spokane Indians team name?

[Fred]

Change it to the Spokane Native Americans

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This point seems obvious to some. To others, it's like you're speaking in Martian.

I do have a question for you, Tony: What's your take on the Spokane Indians team name?

The point is clear to many of us.

American Indians are not offended by the term Indians, and usually prefer it to Native American (As someone else pointed out, they often prefer their particual tribe). Native American was a white liberal term applied to them, not one they chose.

The issue is not whether or not the word Indians is offensive, including to American Indians, mostly because it isn't.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by drcy

The point is clear to many of us.

American Indians are not offended by the term Indians, and usually prefer it to Native American (As someone else pointed out, they often prefer their particual tribe). Native American was a white liberal term applied to them, not one they chose.

The issue is not whether or not the word Indians is offensive, including to American Indians, mostly because it isn't.

Is this like the African American community preferring to be called black rather than the PC term without a color reference.

I'm so sick of PC. Use common sense, it's not difficult to not be an idiot when speaking about people, races , cultures, etc.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Why is it the Indian name that gets you this riled up? Something as trivial as the name of a baseball club? Were you this upset when the Devil Rays changed their name? Hmm, something about that Indian name... See, if the Notre Dame Fightin' Irish changed their name tomorrow, most people wouldn't give a damn. They'd say sweet, the Fightin' Devil Rays... and life would go on.

I'm not riled up. I am in my home, bored, watching yet another group of people playing victim. As I said above, if we're talking about the mascot/logo of Wahoo Sam, smiling with the big teeth, I would liken that to blackface and agree it is insulting. Here in MN we have the Vikings, and many people here, including me, are Scandinavian. But the logo and mascot aren't deemed offensive: the logo is a dignified looking guy with blonde hair, and the mascot is a guy who dresses up in a Viking outfit at games. So it isn't seen as demeaning to anyone.

So we agree the caricatures are objectionable. What I don't find objectionable is the word, and concept, of Indians as the name of a team.

Many cities, lakes, rivers are named after Indian words. American Indians are an important part of this country's culture and history, both recorded and pre- Columbus (in other words, pre- written history.) Many Indians in MN have famously gotten along quite well with European settlers, particularly the Ojibwe. In fact, their wars were against other Indians. This, from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe

Through their friendship with the French traders (coureurs des bois and voyageurs), the Ojibwe gained guns, began to use European goods, and began to dominate their traditional enemies, the Lakota and Fox to their west and south. They drove the Sioux from the Upper Mississippi region to the area of the present-day Dakotas, and forced the Fox down from northern Wisconsin. The latter allied with the Sauk for protection...

The Ojibwe were part of a long-term alliance with the Anishinaabe Odawa and Potawatomi peoples, called the Council of Three Fires. They fought against the Iroquois Confederacy, based mainly to the southeast of the Great Lakes in present-day New York, and the Sioux to the west. The Ojibwa stopped the Iroquois advance into their territory near Lake Superior in 1662. Then they formed an alliance with other tribes such as the Huron and the Odawa who had been displaced by the Iroquois invasion. Together they launched a massive counterattack against the Iroquois and drove them out of Michigan and southern Ontario until they were forced to flee back to their original homeland in upstate New York. At the same time the Iroquois were subjected to attacks by the French. This was the beginning of the end of the Iroquois Confederacy as they were put on the defensive. The Ojibwe expanded eastward, taking over the lands along the eastern shores of Lake Huron and Georgian Bay.

In 1745, they adopted guns from the British in order to repel the Dakota people in the Lake Superior area, pushing them to the south and west. In the 1680s the Ojibwa defeated the Iroquois who dispersed their Huron allies and trading partners. This victory allowed them a "golden age" in which they ruled uncontested in southern Ontario......

When Indians claim victimhood because European settlers "took their land," my question is, who did the Indians take their land from?

[tedzan]

Here's a suggested new name that even the "politically correct" mob may agree with

CLEVELAND ROCK-N-ROLLERS

The "R-n-R" Hall of Fame is a great site to see.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here's a suggested new name that even the "politically correct" mob may agree with

CLEVELAND ROCK-N-ROLLERS

"May" is the key word here.

This person could possibly disagree: https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion...j6y-story.html

"Black people have been so thoroughly erased from rock that it’s even considered “white music” by our own community. Black rock performers are novelties; visitors in our own house."

"Rock music — like so many other things in this country — has been influenced for decades by systemic racist forces to erase Black originators from the form in an effort to make it more palatable for white consumers."

Not making a comment either way, just food for thought.

[Casey2296]

--

[Tyruscobb]

The bottom line is it’s a business - no different than any other one. The owner certainly has the right to change the name for whatever reason he/she wants. Mom and Pop’s Pizza can change its name to Big Nero’s Pizza, just like the Indians can change its name to the Beavers. I’d say the Chicago Blackhawks, Atlanta Braves, and Kansas City Chiefs will be the next dominoes to fall.

[Ronnie73]

It's a different world out there, and I get it. But when I feel forced to change the name or term of something to be "2020" correct, it actually makes me feel uncomfortable. Maybe because I'm one of those people. I'm not sure if I'm racist, because I think race would have to be the issue. Maybe I'm more of a hate person? I don't even know what the correct term is, that I am. Maybe someone else can tell me. I dislike assholes. I'd say hate, but hate is such a strong word. But there are days that I do hate them, so I hate assholes. I also hate anyone that intentionally causes harm to other humans and abuse to animals. I dislike people that go out of their way to make someone else's day more difficult, just because they can. I could probably go on forever on this topic but I won't. So am I racist? I'd say borderline yes, racist against the human race. Because it's the human race that's coming up with all these changes and making everyone feel bad about something that was viewed as good at one point in the past. Those that know me, know I also collect coins, stamps, and comic books. As a kid in the late 70's, early 80's, an Indian Head Penny is exactly what it was. The nickels went by two names. Either the more popular Buffalo Nickel, but some referred to them as Indian Head Nickels. Now 40 years later, and I have to stop and think how to ask to see a certain coin. Because to the newest generation of coin collectors, it's now the Native American Penny. Everyone is so concerned about calling it the right thing, that they totally forgot that our US government respectfully had an Indian or Native American if you prefer on the penny from 1859 to 1909 and then had an Indian or Native American if you prefer on the nickel from 1913 to 1938. They were also on many other US coins and paper currency over the years. Mainly to preserve history, make awareness, and to keep future generations a part of the conversation and topic. At the time those coins were issued, they showed respect by putting them on the most common lowest denominations because they would be the most circulated design throughout our country and even make it into many other countries. Now here we are 80 to 160 years later, and people are demanding name changes of baseball teams. If your not careful, you could literally rewrite or possibly remove yourself from history completely. I'm sure if you dig deep enough, certain names and terms were used out of respect and not hate.

If "2020 correctness" or "political correctness" is what your losing sleep over, I hate to break it to you but, your obviously doing very well for yourself in these current times. There are many people struggling day by day to financially survive. There's even a few of us that are going day by day because of severe health issues. I don't watch the news anymore because their heart is in the wrong place. This message board is not the place to go into details of things but I can and will say, be kind to each other. Remember that if your having a bad day, there are others going through much worse. The topic for this post is a good topic for discussion but that's kind of where it ends for us, the topic, and our opinions. There's a lot of good people out there. Many don't even realize they did or said something offensive until it's too late. I just ask that everyone goes into 2021 with an open mind and a kind heart. Everyone is in control of their own destiny. When you leave the house in the morning, keep telling yourself that you will make the extra effort to be kind to others. Don't take it personal if you don't get a "Thank You". It happens a lot. But once you do get a thank you, and you follow it up with a Your Welcome, you will start to feel something. Something good. And it has the ability to multiply. Maybe none of this makes any sense because I'm tired, it's almost 3am, and I'm typing with one eye shut, and one arm numb. So I'm going to bed. But remember, it doesn't cost money to be polite to others, and my opinion is if you collect Indian Head Pennies, you are not racist.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Again, it's not the term "Indian" that's questionable to us. We've been referring to ourselves as Indians for years. It's the fact that we are not a mascot.

I wonder if real-life cowboys get offended by the Oklahoma State Cowboys mascot? Hmmm...something tells me that they don't.

[packs]

Since there is still some debate on why the name was changed, I will post the exact explanation from the owner of the team again:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by packs

Since there is still some debate on why the name was changed, I will post the exact explanation from the owner of the team again:

“Hearing firsthand the stories and experiences of Native American people, we gained a deep understanding of how tribal communities feel about the team name and the detrimental effects it has on them,” team owner Paul Dolan said in a statement. “While Indians will always be a part of our history, it is time to move forward and work to unify our stakeholders and fans through a new name.”

Understood, Packs. I think many of us read that as we would all of the great things Exxon is doing to preserve nature and make the world a better place. As previously pointed out, it's a business. The recent wave of virtue signaling and corporate "social responsibility" is a well-calculated marketing decision. Executives (including the Cleveland baseball club) understand their target market has changed and they need to lure the zoomers and millennials to sell tickets.

I also agree, all people deserve respect and its always worth having the conversation. I personally feel Chief Wahoo is inappropriate and he could go away altogether. Teams update their logos all the time. Unless the term is blatantly derogatory, I'm not sure you'll ever get consensus on whether Indian, Native American, Indigenous, etc is more appropriate. But a small segment of society (that isn't generally part of the group in question) consistently takes it upon themselves to lecture and dictate everyone elses perspective. I believe a lot of the comments above reflect the exhaustion of these self-righteous, self-appointed moral compasses of the masses.

Cleveland can be whatever they want to be.

[packs]

I disagree with your Exxon comparison. This isn't a matter of paying lip service. Unless you're suggesting the owner of the team is doing something nefarious he's covering up for with an announcement like he's changing the century old name of his baseball franchise.

The man explained why he did what he did. To refuse to accept the explanation and to act as though you (the royal you, not you specifically) know the "real" reasons is at odds with what is actually happening.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by packs

I disagree with your Exxon comparison. This isn't a matter of paying lip service. Unless you're suggesting the owner of the team is doing something nefarious he's covering up for with an announcement like he's changing the century old name of his baseball franchise.

The man explained why he did what he did. To refuse to accept the explanation and to act as though you (the royal you, not you specifically) know the "real" reasons is at odds with what is actually happening.

Sure, it wasn't a well-calculated business decision. The timing on the change simply was this owner's sudden realization that we had it all wrong for 100 years. Clearly this was out of the kindness of his heart and there was no business value in doing so. Got it. The Exxon comparison from the standpoint of how companies use PR is a fair one. Nobody suggested anything nefarious. Perhaps you feel all companies and government are altruistic and principled...well, unless they don't share your perspective of the world?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Sure, it wasn't a well-calculated business decision. The timing on the change simply was this owner's sudden realization that we had it all wrong for 100 years. Clearly this was out of the kindness of his heart and there was no business value in doing so. Got it. The Exxon comparison from the standpoint of how companies use PR is a fair one. Nobody suggested anything nefarious. Perhaps you feel all companies and government are altruistic and principled...well, unless they don't share your perspective of the world?

+ 1000000....anybody that disagrees hasn't been in business. We all know the answer is always MONEY (as well as it should be for a for profit business).

But saying he is righting a wrong for altruistic reasons is far fetched and inaccurate. imo.

.