Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[999Tony]

ok -- I concede that the all-star game is not a single uber stat that should be used to decide the greatest lefty pitcher of all time. And that the only thing the stat is useful for is to tell us how many all-star games a player was selected for.

I thought it was obvious I wasn't serious about that, but I guess not. Sorry, was just having fun with garbage stats. Luckily it isn't possible for me to derail this thread.

But leaving aside all-star game appearances, it does seem that Newhouser is a pretty good comp for Koufax for reasons other than the similar number of all-star games. His peak extends beyond 1945, so that alone shouldn't be a disqualifier.

[FrankWakefield]

Best "all time" isn't Best over a 5 year period. Koufax was a great pitcher, dominant for those last 5 years. Hall of Famer for certain, and I wish that being that caliber of player was still what it took to get into the Hall.

But Lefty Grove carried a franchise for 5 years longer than Koufax pitched, he started 45% more games that Koufax, and won 82% more games than Koufax. All time has to mean all time, not single season, not peak 5... (and if it was based on a single season 31-4 and a 2.06 ERA isn't paled when compared to 27-9 and 1.73)

[cammb]

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by cammb

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

IF is one of the biggest words in the English language.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

Only if we aren't allowed to imagine that Spahn never went to war, Grove didn't ruin his arm, Randy found control earlier, and Waddell wasn't mentally challenged.

But you keep trying, so I will concede: Fantasy Koufax is way better than any pitcher who had an actual career. No doubt about it!

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

One could also imagine him pitching his entire career at Coors field in the live ball era, then he would never even have a thread dedicated to him...and only the people who recognize the importance of context, would see his value.


But really, what you said is the entire point. He would need five more elite years just to get into the discussion, because only then would he would begin to match the length of dominance of Unit or Grove.

Until he puts up those five more elite years...he doesn't belong in the conversation of all time best lefty.

[G1911]

If we're going to rate based on people's fantasies, then literally anyone can be proclaimed the greatest ever. If Walter Johnson had pitched with his left arm, he would be the greatest lefty ever. I nominate him as a result.

Pfeister had the lowest career ERA of a lefty, and a better whip and FIP. With context removed, why isn't he the greatest, Koufaxers?

Or if career stats don't matter, because longevity doesn't favor Koufax at all, and only peak does, then why isn't it Schupp?

I once heard from someone that somebody who faced him said Lefty Leifield was unstoppable! If anecdotes are our basis, why not him?

Even removing longevity, ignoring context of time and place, taking all the ridiculous claims for Koufax no matter how many principles of logic they violate, he still doesn't come out #1. The "best of all time" and "my personal favorite" are not synonyms; they are wildly different things.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Also keep in mind that Koufax used every ounce of his body to achieve the velocity on his pitches and torque on his curve ball. That is what it took for him to achieve what he did in his last five peak years.

Who is to say that was sustainable? Actually, it proved not to be sustainable.

So either he was going to break down had he continued(which he did break down), or he would have had to pitch a little differently DURING his peak to last longer(which would mean his peak wouldn't have been as good as it was), and his next five years even lower.

So instead of throwing 27 complete games, it may have been 19. Instead of throwing ten shutouts, it may have been six. Then you wouldn't be citing his complete games etc.


Kind of reminds me of Tim Lincecum and how he used every ounce of his body to achieve four excellent years...and then that was all his body could handle, and then he quickly went to becoming mediocre, and then was done soon after.

On the flip side, someone like Randy Johnson did it for 4,100 innings and within that career length he had a better dominance than Koufax, as he led the league in ERA+ SIX times and IP twice. Koufax led just twice in ERA+ and twice in Innings pitched.

Johnson won five Cy Young awards and finished second three more times...and was able to be better than average up until the age of 44.

I'm sure Unit could have shined even brighter some of those years, adding a few more complete games, striking out 400 batters in a season had he chosen to...but then he may have burned out more quickly and not added an entire 'second' career that Koufax never was able to do.

Johnson had a BETTER and LONGER peak than Koufax and he was better much longer too. That equals a slam dunk win over Koufax as to who was better

And since "winning is all that matters" in the biggest game, according to some....Randy Johnson was 3-0 with a 1.04 ERA in World Series play, taking an EXPANSION TEAM to World Series victory over one of the greatest dynasties in MLB history. An expansion team!

Since fantasy talk is prevalent, Koufax doesn't go to any World Series playing for the expansion Mets in those years. Zero. Zilch.

[cammb]

[QUOTE=HistoricNewspapers;2004405]One could also imagine him pitching his entire career at Coors field in the live ball era, then he would never even have a thread dedicated to him...and only the people who recognize the importance of context, would see his value.


But really, what you said is the entire point. He would need five more elite years just to get into the discussion, because only then would he would begin to match the length of dominance of Unit or Grove.

Until he puts up those five more elite years...he doesn't belong in the conversation of all time best lefty.[/QUOTE

You know nothing about Grove other than his suspect stats. Not many of us were alive when he pitched. You probably never saw Koufax pitch as well as most of you Koufax deniers. You rely on these made up metrics that some jock sniffer made up in his basement and you tout them as gospel the fact that he is a first round hofer and the youngest elected says it all.

[earlywynnfan]

[QUOTE=cammb;2004466]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

One could also imagine him pitching his entire career at Coors field in the live ball era, then he would never even have a thread dedicated to him...and only the people who recognize the importance of context, would see his value.


But really, what you said is the entire point. He would need five more elite years just to get into the discussion, because only then would he would begin to match the length of dominance of Unit or Grove.

Until he puts up those five more elite years...he doesn't belong in the conversation of all time best lefty.[/QUOTE

You know nothing about Grove other than his suspect stats. Not many of us were alive when he pitched. You probably never saw Koufax pitch as well as most of you Koufax deniers. You rely on these made up metrics that some jock sniffer made up in his basement and you tout them as gospel the fact that he is a first round hofer and the youngest elected says it all.

Please identity which of Grove's stats are suspect.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cammb

You know nothing about Grove other than his suspect stats. Not many of us were alive when he pitched. You probably never saw Koufax pitch as well as most of you Koufax deniers. You rely on these made up metrics that some jock sniffer made up in his basement and you tout them as gospel the fact that he is a first round hofer and the youngest elected says it all.

This is the perfect encapsulation of how utterly absurd, comical and ridiculous the emotional argument for Koufax is. Grove's stats are made up metrics by jock sniffers. Koufax is therefore the GOAT. Stunning.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is the perfect encapsulation of how utterly absurd, comical and ridiculous the emotional argument for Koufax is. Grove's stats are made up metrics by jock sniffers. Koufax is therefore the GOAT. Stunning.

Well, you can't argue with the fact that he was a HOFer at age 37. Clearly that makes him superior to bums like Feller (44), Walter (49), Nolan Ryan (52.) Guess that also means Mays (48), Aaron (48), and Musial (49) must be fairly mediocre.