Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[cammb]

Lefty Grove has a thousand more innings pitched. So lets see. He never led the league in innings pitched, Led the league 7 times in Ks (never struck out more than 206 Batters in a season), 9 era titles, 35 Shutouts, BB once, w=l Pct 5xs and whip 5 times. So being that he had a 1000 more innings pitched I would say Koufax wins.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

Lefty Grove has a thousand more innings pitched. So lets see. He never led the league in innings pitched, Led the league 7 times in Ks (never struck out more than 206 Batters in a season), 9 era titles, 35 Shutouts, BB once, w=l Pct 5xs and whip 5 times. So being that he had a 1000 more innings pitched I would say Koufax wins.

Lefty Grove has 111 league leading black inks.
Sandy Koufax has 78 league leading black inks.

Lefty Grove has 319 Gray inks.
Sandy Koufax has 151 Gray inks.

However, despite the astronomical lead Grove has over Koufax in league leading and top ten finishes, it is the run prevention(in relation to the league)that truly matters:

Best ERA+ seasons:
Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify

Of course, when looking at those league leading categories, DO NOT forget to account for the ballpark advantages:

Koufax had 23 shutouts in 85 career starts at Dodger stadium.
Koufax had 17 shutouts in 229 career starts everywhere else.

Dodger Stadium is responsible for a good chunk of all of Koufax's league leading events.

The ability to pitch 1,000 more innings is a positive....not a negative.

[999Tony]

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied, but there may be another candidate superior to Koufax, dunno if he has been mentioned --Hal Newhouser.

Hal Newhouser --7
Lefty Gomez --7
Chris Sale --7
(may be others with 6-7 I stopped looking)

Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

Babe Ruth --2 (both as hitter so really zero as pitcher) (not adjusting for lack of all star games since we don't know if he would have been selected)


Hal Newhouser really did have a great 2-3 year peak,

His single highest year WAR is higher than Koufax's best year. Led in wins 4 out of 5 years. Led in FIP 4 years in a row. His hitting isn't much better than Koufax's, but he does have more career WAR.


ok yeah he gave up 14 runs in the 1945 world series, but went 2-1, that's a much better winning percentage than Koufax's 4-3.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied,

yeah, let's ignore the fact that the first All Star Game was in the final year of Grove's peak. So call it a tie.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied, but there may be another candidate superior to Koufax, dunno if he has been mentioned --Hal Newhouser.

Hal Newhouser --7
Lefty Gomez --7
Chris Sale --7
(may be others with 6-7 I stopped looking)

Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

Babe Ruth --2 (both as hitter so really zero as pitcher) (not adjusting for lack of all star games since we don't know if he would have been selected)


Hal Newhouser really did have a great 2-3 year peak,

His single highest year WAR is higher than Koufax's best year. Led in wins 4 out of 5 years. Led in FIP 4 years in a row. His hitting isn't much better than Koufax's, but he does have more career WAR.


ok yeah he gave up 14 runs in the 1945 world series, but went 2-1, that's a much better winning percentage than Koufax's 4-3.

Well, the problem with all of this is you are obviously using bWAR, which is a garbage, made-up stat that shows its flaws by having lesser players like Newhouser or Grove come out ahead. You must use twar and twar only. Then you will see that nobody compares to Koufax.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied.....
Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

And yet again, Koufax has a built-in advantage: there were 2 All Star games played in 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962.

Grove was the best left-hander of all time.

And this:

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

yeah, let's ignore the fact that the first All Star Game was in the final year of Grove's peak. So call it a tie.

[999Tony]

ok -- I concede that the all-star game is not a single uber stat that should be used to decide the greatest lefty pitcher of all time. And that the only thing the stat is useful for is to tell us how many all-star games a player was selected for.

I thought it was obvious I wasn't serious about that, but I guess not. Sorry, was just having fun with garbage stats. Luckily it isn't possible for me to derail this thread.

But leaving aside all-star game appearances, it does seem that Newhouser is a pretty good comp for Koufax for reasons other than the similar number of all-star games. His peak extends beyond 1945, so that alone shouldn't be a disqualifier.

[FrankWakefield]

Best "all time" isn't Best over a 5 year period. Koufax was a great pitcher, dominant for those last 5 years. Hall of Famer for certain, and I wish that being that caliber of player was still what it took to get into the Hall.

But Lefty Grove carried a franchise for 5 years longer than Koufax pitched, he started 45% more games that Koufax, and won 82% more games than Koufax. All time has to mean all time, not single season, not peak 5... (and if it was based on a single season 31-4 and a 2.06 ERA isn't paled when compared to 27-9 and 1.73)

[cammb]

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over