Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not really, Clayton Kershaw has a greater home/road gap for his career.

???

Kershaw has a 2.15 ERA at home, 2.78 away. That's significantly closer than Koufax for splits (Dodger Stadium home).

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

???

Kershaw has a 2.15 ERA at home, 2.78 away. That's significantly closer than Koufax for splits (Dodger Stadium home).

Not for his career.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not for his career.

True. The conversation, however, was centered on his ridiculous splits during the Dodger Stadium years.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

True. The conversation, however, was centered on his ridiculous splits during the Dodger Stadium years.

This is another strawman. I have never excluded Koufax's first 7 years from my arguments. His career numbers, ERA, WHIP and FIP are better than any other lefty other than Kershaw. Koufax's postseason gives him the advantage there. Changing the argument and arguing something different is the definition of a strawman and has been done throughout this thread by the anti-Koufax group.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is another strawman. I have never excluded Koufax's first 7 years from my arguments. His career numbers, ERA, WHIP and FIP are better than any other lefty other than Kershaw. Koufax's postseason gives him the advantage there. Changing the argument and arguing something different is the definition of a strawman and has been done throughout this thread by the anti-Koufax group.

False. We haven't changed any argument. From the get-go, the argument from the anti-Koufax crowd - if you want to call us that - is that his severe home/road splits, specifically during his 1962/3 - 66 stretch, work against him, same as they do for Larry Walker, Jim Rice, Chuck Klein, et al.

[Flintboy]

Surprises me that Lolich isn’t mentioned more often. He along with Kaline were the team leaders on the Tigers for many years. I know he isn’t in the Koufax, Carlton, Johnson, etc discussion......but I know I could make a very strong case to have him in the HOF rather then some other recently voted in players.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Surprises me that Lolich isn’t mentioned more often. He along with Kaline were the team leaders on the Tigers for many years. I know he isn’t in the Koufax, Carlton, Johnson, etc discussion......but I know I could make a very strong case to have him in the HOF rather then some other recently voted in players.

His career ERA being the league average (104 ERA+), plus leading the league in more negative things than positive things is a hard case to overcome. We're getting pretty far down the list to get to Lolich.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

False. We haven't changed any argument. From the get-go, the argument from the anti-Koufax crowd - if you want to call us that - is that his severe home/road splits, specifically during his 1962/3 - 66 stretch, work against him, same as they do for Larry Walker, Jim Rice, Chuck Klein, et al.

This is a circular argument. A logical falacy. It's not a valid argument. Dodger Stadium has an average park factor of 95. That means that Koufax benefited 5% from pitching there. 5% is all. The reason he was so good in Dodger Stadium is because he is the best lefty of all time. Dodger Stadium's park factor is in line with other pitchers parks. The Astrodome averaged 94. Candlestick Park averaged 97. Why couldn't Marichal come within 2% of Koufax's home ERA? Or any Astros pitcher match it?

Now let's look at hitters parks. The "Launching Pad" in Atlanta had an average park factor of 105 with a high of 114. So, a hitter in Atlanta got the same bonus that a pitcher did in Dodger Stadium. The Baker Bowl was a little more extreme. From 1921-1937 it averaged 112 with a high of 116. The Rockies average park factor for their entire history...118 with a high of 128. I will let you figure out Fenway, but it is going to be close to 105, the best season was 112. I find it a little hypocritical that you mention Jim Rice. Sure he got a boost from the Green Monster being 310 feet in LF. Why doesn't Koufax get the same respect for pitching 4 seasons with a LF screen 251 feet in LF?

A normal park factor is 100. +/- 5% is a normal range. Denver is way outside of any normal range. That none of the parks in the discussion have had a single season what Denver averages is why home/road spits matter for Rockies players. For Koufax, it is a very minor factor.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is a circular argument. A logical falacy. It's not a valid argument. Dodger Stadium has an average park factor of 95. That means that Koufax benefited 5% from pitching there. 5% is all. The reason he was so good in Dodger Stadium is because he is the best lefty of all time. Dodger Stadium's park factor is in line with other pitchers parks. The Astrodome averaged 94. Candlestick Park averaged 97. Why couldn't Marichal come within 2% of Koufax's home ERA? Or any Astros pitcher match it?

Now let's look at hitters parks. The "Launching Pad" in Atlanta had an average park factor of 105 with a high of 114. So, a hitter in Atlanta got the same bonus that a pitcher did in Dodger Stadium. The Baker Bowl was a little more extreme. From 1921-1937 it averaged 112 with a high of 116. The Rockies average park factor for their entire history...118 with a high of 128. I will let you figure out Fenway, but it is going to be close to 105, the best season was 112. I find it a little hypocritical that you mention Jim Rice. Sure he got a boost from the Green Monster being 310 feet in LF. Why doesn't Koufax get the same respect for pitching 4 seasons with a LF screen 251 feet in LF?

A normal park factor is 100. +/- 5% is a normal range. Denver is way outside of any normal range. That none of the parks in the discussion have had a single season what Denver averages is why home/road spits matter for Rockies players. For Koufax, it is a very minor factor.

So wait, now Park Factor is a legit stat? I'm having a hard time keeping up with you. You told me the only stats that mattered, but didn't respond when others pointed out that those specific stats could be used show others as better than Koufax, like bringing up ERA+ to use against Marichal but ignoring it with Grove.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Why doesn't Koufax get the same respect for pitching 4 seasons with a LF screen 251 feet in LF?

If you go back and look over my posts, I specifically talked about Koufax's four seasons at the Coliseum. Excluded them from stats, in fact. However, had people saying "park doesn't matter" (paraphrase) when it come to explaining Koufax's greatness at Dodger Stadium but wanted to say that the Coliseum hurt Koufax. You can't have it both ways. Either the stadium matters or it doesn't.

Originally Posted by rats60

A normal park factor is 100. +/- 5% is a normal range. Denver is way outside of any normal range. That none of the parks in the discussion have had a single season what Denver averages is why home/road spits matter for Rockies players. For Koufax, it is a very minor factor.

If it was such a minor factor, Koufax wouldn't have average well over double outside of Dodger Stadium what he averaged inside it. If it didn't matter, he wouldn't have an ERA over 3.50 at half the stadiums where he pitched 6 or more times.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is another strawman. I have never excluded Koufax's first 7 years from my arguments. His career numbers, ERA, WHIP and FIP are better than any other lefty other than Kershaw. Koufax's postseason gives him the advantage there. Changing the argument and arguing something different is the definition of a strawman and has been done throughout this thread by the anti-Koufax group.

That isn't true. Rube Waddell and Jack Pfeister are both better than Koufax in those measurements. Since context is also ignored in regard to Koufax vs other superior pitchers like Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove, then Waddell and Pfeister are both better than Koufax in that same context-free stats.

As stated, Kershaw also bests Koufax in those measurements...but that is dismissed by you because of post season performance. Basically, your criteria says that being better than someone in the World Series will wipe away the advantage in the thousands of innings pitched in the regular season.

If that is your criteria, then Madison Bumgarner is better than Koufax. Bumgarner is 4-0 with a 0.25 ERA in the World Series. Koufax is 4-3 with a a 0.95 ERA in the World Series. Bumgarner has three rings, Koufax three.

Also, if winning is all that matters, then Whitey Ford has six World Series wins, which(based on your criteria), makes him better than Koufax too. Ford also has 10 World Series wins to the 4 for Koufax.

Johnson is better than Koufax regardless. Here are their top 12 ERA+ seasons(seasons in which they qualified for ERA title):

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnsons's top years are better than Koufax's from top to bottom...and Koufax's bottom is really bad since he wasn't good enough to play, and was way below Johnson in most of those other years.

I put some of Grove's top years in there too for more comparison.

Big Unit is the best lefty ever as he has both the elite prime AND elite longevity. He has the results in conjunction with the ideal physical size and overwhelming superior stuff that make him both umpire proof and era proof.

If anecdotes are your 'thing' then just a little digging will provide more 'fear' of Randy Johnson anecdotes from MLB hitters, than probably any other MLB pitcher in the history of MLB.

This isn't meant as any disrespect toward Koufax. He is the ultimate "what if" player, and he was great indeed, albeit for a very short time. Be careful how much credit you give him for that as history is filled with guys who lost career length or effectiveness due to injury. I give more credit to the guys who lost time due to WWII.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

That isn't true. Rube Waddell and Jack Pfeister are both better than Koufax in those measurements. Since context is also ignored in regard to Koufax vs other superior pitchers like Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove, then Waddell and Pfeister are both better than Koufax in that same context-free stats.

As stated, Kershaw also bests Koufax in those measurements...but that is dismissed by you because of post season performance. Basically, your criteria says that being better than someone in the World Series will wipe away the advantage in the thousands of innings pitched in the regular season.

If that is your criteria, then Madison Bumgarner is better than Koufax. Bumgarner is 4-0 with a 0.25 ERA in the World Series. Koufax is 4-3 with a a 0.95 ERA in the World Series. Bumgarner has three rings, Koufax three.

Also, if winning is all that matters, then Whitey Ford has six World Series wins, which(based on your criteria), makes him better than Koufax too. Ford also has 10 World Series wins to the 4 for Koufax.

Johnson is better than Koufax regardless. Here are their top 12 ERA+ seasons(seasons in which they qualified for ERA title):

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnsons's top years are better than Koufax's from top to bottom...and Koufax's bottom is really bad since he wasn't good enough to play, and was way below Johnson in most of those other years.

I put some of Grove's top years in there too for more comparison.

Big Unit is the best lefty ever as he has both the elite prime AND elite longevity. He has the results in conjunction with the ideal physical size and overwhelming superior stuff that make him both umpire proof and era proof.

If anecdotes are your 'thing' then just a little digging will provide more 'fear' of Randy Johnson anecdotes from MLB hitters, than probably any other MLB pitcher in the history of MLB.

This isn't meant as any disrespect toward Koufax. He is the ultimate "what if" player, and he was great indeed, albeit for a very short time. Be careful how much credit you give him for that as history is filled with guys who lost career length or effectiveness due to injury. I give more credit to the guys who lost time due to WWII.

What we can do with stats. Here is some for you. Career Numbers Led League:

IP ERA Titles Shutouts IP BB K WHIP W-L PCT

Kou 2324 5 40 2 0 4 4 5

RJ 4135 4 37 2 3 9 3 4

This is what Koufax did in his short career. Johnson had close to 2000 more innings pitched. Give me Koufax in a heartbeat.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

What we can do with stats. Here is some for you. Career Numbers Led League:

IP ERA Titles Shutouts IP BB K WHIP W-L PCT

Kou 2324 5 40 2 0 4 4 5

RJ 4135 4 37 2 3 9 3 4

This is what Koufax did in his short career. Johnson had close to 2000 more innings pitched. Give me Koufax in a heartbeat.

First thing, being able to pitch 2,000 more innings is a credit to Johnson, not a negative.

Second, I find it odd that you left off other categories in your 'black ink' test.

Johnson has led in more categories than Koufax. For instance, Johnson has 99 black ink compared to Koufax having 78.
Gray ink is 280 for Johnson and 151 for Koufax. Not even close.

Third, Run prevention is what matters most...run prevention in comparison to the league run prevention. As you can see, Johnson was vastly superior than Koufax.

Best ERA+ seasons. Johnson's best beats Koufax's best every single season. Johnson beats Koufax at his peak, destroys him in the middle, and Koufax wasn't even good enough to play in the bottom third. So if you are going to take Koufax, you may as well take yourself or me, because for years 12-18 we were just as good MLB as pitchers as Koufax.

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify

Fourth, your method completely ignores context of ballpark, as Dodger stadium was partly responsible for several of Koufax's 'league leading' accomplishments.

Koufax had 23 shutouts in 85 career starts at Dodger stadium.
Koufax had 17 shutouts in 229 career starts everywhere else.

Hmmm.

Finally, if that is your method, then do that same thing with Lefty Grove compared to Koufax. Nine ERA titles for Grove etc... If titles is your method, then compare him to Ford, etc..

[brewing]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

That isn't true. Rube Waddell and Jack Pfeister are both better than Koufax in those measurements. Since context is also ignored in regard to Koufax vs other superior pitchers like Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove, then Waddell and Pfeister are both better than Koufax in that same context-free stats.

As stated, Kershaw also bests Koufax in those measurements...but that is dismissed by you because of post season performance. Basically, your criteria says that being better than someone in the World Series will wipe away the advantage in the thousands of innings pitched in the regular season.

If that is your criteria, then Madison Bumgarner is better than Koufax. Bumgarner is 4-0 with a 0.25 ERA in the World Series. Koufax is 4-3 with a a 0.95 ERA in the World Series. Bumgarner has three rings, Koufax three.

Also, if winning is all that matters, then Whitey Ford has six World Series wins, which(based on your criteria), makes him better than Koufax too. Ford also has 10 World Series wins to the 4 for Koufax.

Johnson is better than Koufax regardless. Here are their top 12 ERA+ seasons(seasons in which they qualified for ERA title):

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnsons's top years are better than Koufax's from top to bottom...and Koufax's bottom is really bad since he wasn't good enough to play, and was way below Johnson in most of those other years.

I put some of Grove's top years in there too for more comparison.

Big Unit is the best lefty ever as he has both the elite prime AND elite longevity. He has the results in conjunction with the ideal physical size and overwhelming superior stuff that make him both umpire proof and era proof.

If anecdotes are your 'thing' then just a little digging will provide more 'fear' of Randy Johnson anecdotes from MLB hitters, than probably any other MLB pitcher in the history of MLB.

This isn't meant as any disrespect toward Koufax. He is the ultimate "what if" player, and he was great indeed, albeit for a very short time. Be careful how much credit you give him for that as history is filled with guys who lost career length or effectiveness due to injury. I give more credit to the guys who lost time due to WWII.

So what you've shown is that by any measurement there is a left hander that is better than Koufax. The myth is strong my friend.

Have no hitters come back yet? Then we can anoint Ryan, Koufax, Feller, Young, and Verlander as the greatest rotation that could ever be compiled.
We'll have to push one of them out though if Homer Bailey or Mike Fiers tosses another one.

[999Tony]

Whitey Ford also has 7 all star appearances! Sorry missed him.

[G1911]

If context and league don’t matter, then why not Newhouser? He won twice as many MVP’s as Koufax too!

Can’t wait for the Koufax die hards to decide that Newhouser’s peak aligning with extremely favorable conditions to him matters and that context actually is important, but not for Koufax because he’s Koufax.