Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[cammb]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

That isn't true. Rube Waddell and Jack Pfeister are both better than Koufax in those measurements. Since context is also ignored in regard to Koufax vs other superior pitchers like Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove, then Waddell and Pfeister are both better than Koufax in that same context-free stats.

As stated, Kershaw also bests Koufax in those measurements...but that is dismissed by you because of post season performance. Basically, your criteria says that being better than someone in the World Series will wipe away the advantage in the thousands of innings pitched in the regular season.

If that is your criteria, then Madison Bumgarner is better than Koufax. Bumgarner is 4-0 with a 0.25 ERA in the World Series. Koufax is 4-3 with a a 0.95 ERA in the World Series. Bumgarner has three rings, Koufax three.

Also, if winning is all that matters, then Whitey Ford has six World Series wins, which(based on your criteria), makes him better than Koufax too. Ford also has 10 World Series wins to the 4 for Koufax.

Johnson is better than Koufax regardless. Here are their top 12 ERA+ seasons(seasons in which they qualified for ERA title):

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnsons's top years are better than Koufax's from top to bottom...and Koufax's bottom is really bad since he wasn't good enough to play, and was way below Johnson in most of those other years.

I put some of Grove's top years in there too for more comparison.

Big Unit is the best lefty ever as he has both the elite prime AND elite longevity. He has the results in conjunction with the ideal physical size and overwhelming superior stuff that make him both umpire proof and era proof.

If anecdotes are your 'thing' then just a little digging will provide more 'fear' of Randy Johnson anecdotes from MLB hitters, than probably any other MLB pitcher in the history of MLB.

This isn't meant as any disrespect toward Koufax. He is the ultimate "what if" player, and he was great indeed, albeit for a very short time. Be careful how much credit you give him for that as history is filled with guys who lost career length or effectiveness due to injury. I give more credit to the guys who lost time due to WWII.

What we can do with stats. Here is some for you. Career Numbers Led League:

IP ERA Titles Shutouts IP BB K WHIP W-L PCT

Kou 2324 5 40 2 0 4 4 5

RJ 4135 4 37 2 3 9 3 4

This is what Koufax did in his short career. Johnson had close to 2000 more innings pitched. Give me Koufax in a heartbeat.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

What we can do with stats. Here is some for you. Career Numbers Led League:

IP ERA Titles Shutouts IP BB K WHIP W-L PCT

Kou 2324 5 40 2 0 4 4 5

RJ 4135 4 37 2 3 9 3 4

This is what Koufax did in his short career. Johnson had close to 2000 more innings pitched. Give me Koufax in a heartbeat.

First thing, being able to pitch 2,000 more innings is a credit to Johnson, not a negative.

Second, I find it odd that you left off other categories in your 'black ink' test.

Johnson has led in more categories than Koufax. For instance, Johnson has 99 black ink compared to Koufax having 78.
Gray ink is 280 for Johnson and 151 for Koufax. Not even close.

Third, Run prevention is what matters most...run prevention in comparison to the league run prevention. As you can see, Johnson was vastly superior than Koufax.

Best ERA+ seasons. Johnson's best beats Koufax's best every single season. Johnson beats Koufax at his peak, destroys him in the middle, and Koufax wasn't even good enough to play in the bottom third. So if you are going to take Koufax, you may as well take yourself or me, because for years 12-18 we were just as good MLB as pitchers as Koufax.

Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify

Fourth, your method completely ignores context of ballpark, as Dodger stadium was partly responsible for several of Koufax's 'league leading' accomplishments.

Koufax had 23 shutouts in 85 career starts at Dodger stadium.
Koufax had 17 shutouts in 229 career starts everywhere else.

Hmmm.

Finally, if that is your method, then do that same thing with Lefty Grove compared to Koufax. Nine ERA titles for Grove etc... If titles is your method, then compare him to Ford, etc..

[999Tony]

If Babe Ruth's pitching career hadn't been tragically cut short at about age 24, wouldn't he have been the best lefty ever? Incredible post season performances, and he would have had a great number more. He contributed a bunch of extra value from his hitting during his pitching years, and likely would have continued to do so even if he remained primarily a pitcher, whereas somebody like Koufax for example of course is famous for his absolutely terrible hitting (gotta subtract a bit for his lifetime 097 average).

Of course, Ruth is sadly a what might have been, I realize he cannot be in the discussion except for one of the best single pitching years ever --1916 --when factoring in batting and world series performance. And since it was Ruth who insisted on playing every day, he is not blameless in this tragic decision that may have deprived everyone of the greatest lefthanded pitcher in history.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

If Babe Ruth's pitching career hadn't been tragically cut short at about age 24, wouldn't he have been the best lefty ever? Incredible post season performances, and he would have had a great number more. He contributed a bunch of extra value from his hitting during his pitching years, and likely would have continued to do so even if he remained primarily a pitcher, whereas somebody like Koufax for example of course is famous for his absolutely terrible hitting (gotta subtract a bit for his lifetime 097 average).

Of course, Ruth is sadly a what might have been, I realize he cannot be in the discussion except for one of the best single pitching years ever --1916 --when factoring in batting and world series performance. And since it was Ruth who insisted on playing every day, he is not blameless in this tragic decision that may have deprived everyone of the greatest lefthanded pitcher in history.

Based on the statistical methods put forth by the Koufax camp, Ruth already is a better lefty than Koufax....don't even have to deal in what if.

ERA
Ruth 2.28
Koufax 2.76

Winning Percentage
Ruth .671
Koufax .655

World Series
Ruth 3-0 with a 0.87 ERA
Koufax 4-3 with a 0.95 ERA

Innings or career length don't matter in the Koufax statistical camp method. Nor does context of ballpark or league scoring environment.

Therefore, based on the methods put forth by the Koufax camp, Ruth already is a better left handed pitcher.

[cammb]

Lefty Grove has a thousand more innings pitched. So lets see. He never led the league in innings pitched, Led the league 7 times in Ks (never struck out more than 206 Batters in a season), 9 era titles, 35 Shutouts, BB once, w=l Pct 5xs and whip 5 times. So being that he had a 1000 more innings pitched I would say Koufax wins.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

Lefty Grove has a thousand more innings pitched. So lets see. He never led the league in innings pitched, Led the league 7 times in Ks (never struck out more than 206 Batters in a season), 9 era titles, 35 Shutouts, BB once, w=l Pct 5xs and whip 5 times. So being that he had a 1000 more innings pitched I would say Koufax wins.

Lefty Grove has 111 league leading black inks.
Sandy Koufax has 78 league leading black inks.

Lefty Grove has 319 Gray inks.
Sandy Koufax has 151 Gray inks.

However, despite the astronomical lead Grove has over Koufax in league leading and top ten finishes, it is the run prevention(in relation to the league)that truly matters:

Best ERA+ seasons:
Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify

Of course, when looking at those league leading categories, DO NOT forget to account for the ballpark advantages:

Koufax had 23 shutouts in 85 career starts at Dodger stadium.
Koufax had 17 shutouts in 229 career starts everywhere else.

Dodger Stadium is responsible for a good chunk of all of Koufax's league leading events.

The ability to pitch 1,000 more innings is a positive....not a negative.

[999Tony]

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied, but there may be another candidate superior to Koufax, dunno if he has been mentioned --Hal Newhouser.

Hal Newhouser --7
Lefty Gomez --7
Chris Sale --7
(may be others with 6-7 I stopped looking)

Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

Babe Ruth --2 (both as hitter so really zero as pitcher) (not adjusting for lack of all star games since we don't know if he would have been selected)


Hal Newhouser really did have a great 2-3 year peak,

His single highest year WAR is higher than Koufax's best year. Led in wins 4 out of 5 years. Led in FIP 4 years in a row. His hitting isn't much better than Koufax's, but he does have more career WAR.


ok yeah he gave up 14 runs in the 1945 world series, but went 2-1, that's a much better winning percentage than Koufax's 4-3.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied,

yeah, let's ignore the fact that the first All Star Game was in the final year of Grove's peak. So call it a tie.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied, but there may be another candidate superior to Koufax, dunno if he has been mentioned --Hal Newhouser.

Hal Newhouser --7
Lefty Gomez --7
Chris Sale --7
(may be others with 6-7 I stopped looking)

Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

Babe Ruth --2 (both as hitter so really zero as pitcher) (not adjusting for lack of all star games since we don't know if he would have been selected)


Hal Newhouser really did have a great 2-3 year peak,

His single highest year WAR is higher than Koufax's best year. Led in wins 4 out of 5 years. Led in FIP 4 years in a row. His hitting isn't much better than Koufax's, but he does have more career WAR.


ok yeah he gave up 14 runs in the 1945 world series, but went 2-1, that's a much better winning percentage than Koufax's 4-3.

Well, the problem with all of this is you are obviously using bWAR, which is a garbage, made-up stat that shows its flaws by having lesser players like Newhouser or Grove come out ahead. You must use twar and twar only. Then you will see that nobody compares to Koufax.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied.....
Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

And yet again, Koufax has a built-in advantage: there were 2 All Star games played in 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962.

Grove was the best left-hander of all time.

And this:

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

yeah, let's ignore the fact that the first All Star Game was in the final year of Grove's peak. So call it a tie.

[999Tony]

ok -- I concede that the all-star game is not a single uber stat that should be used to decide the greatest lefty pitcher of all time. And that the only thing the stat is useful for is to tell us how many all-star games a player was selected for.

I thought it was obvious I wasn't serious about that, but I guess not. Sorry, was just having fun with garbage stats. Luckily it isn't possible for me to derail this thread.

But leaving aside all-star game appearances, it does seem that Newhouser is a pretty good comp for Koufax for reasons other than the similar number of all-star games. His peak extends beyond 1945, so that alone shouldn't be a disqualifier.