Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[FrankWakefield]

I saw Koufax pitch. And Randy Johnson, Spahn, and Carleton.

Koufax had his not quite great years, then he had his dominant years. I saw him when dominant. He was a durable craftsman on the mound, overpowering on one pitch then totally deceiving the hitter on the next pitch.

I didn't see Grove, but I think he's the answer to who's the best. And I think Spahn deserves recognition. I saw him at the end of his career pitching for the Giants one day against St. Louis. (I think McCarver got hurt or was hurt, and Uecker too, anyway they stopped the game and let Mike Shannon take some warmup catches as last hope catcher, and he caught the rest of the game.) Anyway, after reading James' Historical Baseball Abstract (I prefer the 1xt edition) I had to reconsider my thinking on the best lefty I saw... The man was a dominate pitcher and a war hero (not a modern 'he served' hero, but a WWII hero in combat actions.)

I do know when I'd listen to KMOX or WLW as a kid when the Cards or Reds were playing at night in LA, the odds were if Koufax was starting then the Reds or Cards were gonna lose, Wills or Gilliam would get on base, steal or get bunted over, then one of the Davis guys or Ron Fairly would drive them in. Seemed like a couple of runs would win a game out there. And the hell of it was that Drysdale was gonna do the same thing, only righthanded.

So I think it's Grove. For the numbers guys (I'm a bit of one somethimes), look at the career Wins Above Replacement. 26-Grove, 29-R. Johnson, 32-Spahn, and 321-Koufax.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I saw Koufax pitch. And Randy Johnson, Spahn, and Carleton.

Koufax had his not quite great years, then he had his dominant years. I saw him when dominant. He was a durable craftsman on the mound, overpowering on one pitch then totally deceiving the hitter on the next pitch.

I didn't see Grove, but I think he's the answer to who's the best. And I think Spahn deserves recognition. I saw him at the end of his career pitching for the Giants one day against St. Louis. (I think McCarver got hurt or was hurt, and Uecker too, anyway they stopped the game and let Mike Shannon take some warmup catches as last hope catcher, and he caught the rest of the game.) Anyway, after reading James' Historical Baseball Abstract (I prefer the 1xt edition) I had to reconsider my thinking on the best lefty I saw... The man was a dominate pitcher and a war hero (not a modern 'he served' hero, but a WWII hero in combat actions.)

I do know when I'd listen to KMOX or WLW as a kid when the Cards or Reds were playing at night in LA, the odds were if Koufax was starting then the Reds or Cards were gonna lose, Wills or Gilliam would get on base, steal or get bunted over, then one of the Davis guys or Ron Fairly would drive them in. Seemed like a couple of runs would win a game out there. And the hell of it was that Drysdale was gonna do the same thing, only righthanded.

So I think it's Grove. For the numbers guys (I'm a bit of one somethimes), look at the career Wins Above Replacement. 26-Grove, 29-R. Johnson, 32-Spahn, and 321-Koufax.

Frank

It is really great hearing from you. And, you described the Koufax story very well. I am somewhat older than you, and I saw him pitch when he started in Brooklyn.
Then, I followed him during the LA years because I had a feeling he would be great. His style of wind-up was impressive, quite compact and very effective.

However, the two Lefty's that haven't gotten any "play" in this entire thread are Eddie Plank and Lefty Gomez. I'm not that old that I have seen Plank play
But, I have read a lot about him....and, he is my man on the mound in any given season.
Lefty Gomez..I can say a lot about him; however, I leave you with this: I will place him above any other Southpaw when it's time for World Series play. I dare
anyone here to argue against Lefty's 6 - 0 W.S. record.

Changing Pitching styles....some one here mentioned Smoky Joe Wood. Last Summer we visited friends in Milford (Northeastern Pennsylvania), and I ran into
Smoky Joe Wood's Grandson. We had a great conversation, and I could sense that Wood's family cannot understand why Smoky Joe is not in the HOF.
His stats are as good (if not better) than pitchers currently in the HOF. Most notably his 1912 W.S. W-L 3 -1 record.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Frank

It is really great hearing from you. And, you described the Koufax story very well. I am somewhat older than you, and I saw him pitch when he started in Brooklyn.
Then, I followed him during the LA years because I had a feeling he would be great. His style of wind-up was impressive, quite compact and very effective.

However, the two Lefty's that haven't gotten any "play" in this entire thread are Eddie Plank and Lefty Gomez. I'm not that old that I have seen Plank play
But, I have read a lot about him....and, he is my man on the mound in any given season.
Lefty Gomez..I can say a lot about him; however, I leave you with this: I will place him above any other Southpaw when it's time for World Series play. I dare
anyone here to argue against Lefty's 6 - 0 W.S. record.

Changing Pitching styles....some one here mentioned Smoky Joe Wood. Last Summer we visited friends in Milford (Northeastern Pennsylvania), and I ran into
Smoky Joe Wood's Grandson. We had a great conversation, and I could sense that Wood's family cannot understand why Smoky Joe is not in the HOF.
His stats are as good (if not better) than pitchers currently in the HOF. Most notably his 1912 W.S. W-L 3 -1 record.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sorry Ted, but Koufax blows him away. Koufax has more Innings Pitched ERA, Shutouts, Strikeouts. Its not even close. Gomez has two more wins And that's in 4 world series.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cammb

Sorry Ted, but Koufax blows him away. Koufax has more Innings Pitched ERA, Shutouts, Strikeouts. Its not even close. Gomez has two more wins And that's in 4 world series.

Tony

I qualified World Series play regarding Lefty Gomez (6 - 0). Koufax W.S. record is 4 - 3.

With respect to career numbers Gomez has 189 Wins vs Koufax 165 Wins.

I prefaced my story that I was a Koufax fan, since I saw him pitch from 1955 to 1966.
Did you see him pitch in real time ?

Therefore, I'm not sure what you are saying.

And, when you compare numbers between Plank and Koufax, Plank wins the discussion.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tony

I qualified World Series play regarding Lefty Gomez (6 - 0). Koufax W.S. record is 4 - 3.

With respect to career numbers Gomez has 189 Wins vs Koufax 165 Wins.

I prefaced my story that I was a Koufax fan, since I saw him pitch from 1955 to 1966.
Did you see him pitch in real time ?

Therefore, I'm not sure what you are saying.

And, when you compare numbers between Plank and Koufax, Plank wins the discussion.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Gomez has a great WS record because of the run support he received. In the 1936 WS he had a 4.70 ERA but the Yankees scored 18 and 13 runs in his two starts. In his 6 starts, the Yankees scored 54 runs, an average of 9 per game. It is pretty hard to lose when you get that kind of support.

Koufax on the other hand started 7 WS games, the Dodgers scored 17 runs total about two and a half per game. In his 3 losses, the Dodgers were shutout twice and scored one run in the third game. Koufax had a much lower ERA, WHIP, K/9, etc.

Plank was a dead ball era pitcher. It is difficult to compare him to Koufax. Plank was the best lefty of his era and one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Also, he is one of the most underrated players of all time.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by rats60

Plank was a dead ball era pitcher. It is difficult to compare him to Koufax. Plank was the best lefty of his era and one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Also, he is one of the most underrated players of all time.

rats60

Finally, after 300 posts on this thread, someone agrees with me regarding "Lefty" Eddie Plank.

Incidentally, the title of this thread is...."Best lefty of all-time ?"....therefore, era is immaterial.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tony

I qualified World Series play regarding Lefty Gomez (6 - 0). Koufax W.S. record is 4 - 3.

With respect to career numbers Gomez has 189 Wins vs Koufax 165 Wins.

I prefaced my story that I was a Koufax fan, since I saw him pitch from 1955 to 1966.
Did you see him pitch in real time ?

Therefore, I'm not sure what you are saying.

And, when you compare numbers between Plank and Koufax, Plank wins the discussion.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Yes I did see him pitch. I responded to your assertion that because Gomez was 6 -0 in world series play he was the best left hander in that arena. I started following baseball in 1955. Wasn't a dodger or Koufax fan. I was drafted to be a yankee fan because that's what my family rooted for. Believe it or not, I am from NY but a staunch Minnesota Twins fan. Followed the Twins since day1 in 1961. This brings me to the 1965 world series. I will never forget how Koufax dominated them. I am not a huge Koufax fan but I have to give him his due. Never saw a pitcher like him.
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cammb

Yes I did see him pitch. I responded to your assertion that because Gomez was 6 -0 in world series play he was the best left hander in that arena. I started following baseball in 1955. Wasn't a dodger or Koufax fan. I was drafted to be a yankee fan because that's what my family rooted for. Believe it or not, I am from NY but a staunch Minnesota Twins fan. Followed the Twins since day1 in 1961. This brings me to the 1965 world series. I will never forget how Koufax dominated them. I am not a huge Koufax fan but I have to give him his due. Never saw a pitcher like him.
.

Tony

Great, having seen him pitch, we both appreciate how good he was. Actually, I grew up being an avid Yankees fan because Phil Rizzuto was my neighbor in Hillside, NJ (his house
was 2 blocks away from ours).

Monday nights (when it was an off day for the Yankees), Phil would join us kids at St. Catherine's School and entertain us with all his stories. Also, he would give us tips on how to
play the game.

We both grew up in some great times, Tony.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tony

Great, having seen him pitch, we both appreciate how good he was. Actually, I grew up being an avid Yankees fan because Phil Rizzuto was my neighbor in Hillside, NJ (his house
was 2 blocks away from ours).

Monday nights (when it was an off day for the Yankees), Phil would join us kids at St. Catherine's School and entertain us with all his stories. Also, he would give us tips on how to
play the game.

We both grew up in some great times, Tony.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

By the way, Ted is it true that Rizzuto didn't like signing autographs?