Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Koufax and the Dodgers faced the American League pennant winners. Apparently the best stats, don't make champions.

Except they do. The 1963 Yankees had the #2 offense in the AL. The 1965 Twins had the #2 offense in the AL. The 1966 Orioles had the #1 offense in the AL. I guess some expect the Dodgers to play the AL All Star team in the World Series for the stats to count.

[Frank A]

Spahn!!!!!!!!

[Robbie]

I'm going to chime in one more time here...

Especially for the "Anti-Koufax", "stat-head" faction, I want to clarify that I never said stats are unimportant, or are not critical to consider ... I said that they do not give the complete picture... they are selective, leave things out, and do not tell us everything.

Unlike G1911, I believe a great pitcher's ability to teach and share their craft adds to their greatness. I think if you ask the Braves pitching staff about the value of having the knowledge of Greg Maddux, even when Maddux wasn't pitching, they would agree. This has held true even after his playing days. I believe this adds to Maddux's greatness. So again I will ask, which other top 10 lefty besides Koufax had the knowledge and ability to teach and mentor another all-time great pitcher?
And BTW, which of the top 10 lefties did Johnny Sain coach or mentor?

One thing that I put weight and merit into, that the stat heads put little to none, is what the best players to have played the game in the past 100 years have to say on the subject. They may actually know something about this that we seemingly don't. Casey Stengel and many other old-timers saw and played against Carl Hubbell and Lefty Grove, and also saw Koufax pitch 20-25 years later. Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Yogi Berra, Ernie Banks, Joe Morgan, and many other great HOFers played against Koufax and have also seen Randy Johnson’s career. And the common thread is that since Koufax pitched, a majority of the living HOFers from that point forward already have and would still tell you that Koufax was the best left-handed pitcher ever.

To my knowledge, there was never, and is not that same consensus that Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbell, Warren Spahn or Randy Johnson is the greatest lefty ever… although Spahn gets a lot of respect (and deservedly so) for having the most wins ever for a left-hander.

This following is from the SABR website, with credit to them and the writer Marc Aaron;

The great Ernie Banks described what it was like to face Koufax. “It was frightening. He had that tremendous fastball that would rise, and a great curveball that started at the eyes and broke to the ankles. In the end you knew you were going to be embarrassed. You were either going to strike out or foul out.” Banks said, “He was the greatest pitcher I ever saw. Most of the time we knew what was coming…. but it didn’t matter.”

Does this in itself mean that Koufax was the best and you can ignore statistics? Of course not. But given that the statistics are generally great for all the guys being discussed, maybe more weight should be put into what the people who know best have to say. Maybe Stengel, Mays, Aaron, Berra, Banks, Stargell, Morgan, Et al. are onto something.

"I know (Sandy) Koufax weakness. He can't hit."
--- Whitey Ford

One last thing….

There has been a lot made about the height of the mound at Dodger Stadium when Koufax pitched. Well, I don’t know if anybody has brought this up, but:

Randy Johnson was 9 or 10 inches taller than Sandy Koufax. So, even though Koufax pitched on a mound that was as much as 5 inches higher than the modern mound, Randy Johnson had the advantage of a much higher release point than Sandy Koufax. So, Johnson was taller, had longer arms, and released the ball at a point much closer to the plate.

Should Randy Johnson be considered greater because of the advantage of his height, or should Koufax be considered greater because he did not have the same advantages?

Sandy Koufax threw the ball as hard or harder than Randy Johnson did, but 35 years earlier… without the specialized training techniques, coaching, science on mechanics, health and other advances, and modern day pampering.

Koufax had no chance to develop before the big leagues. Stat-heads blame him for his early record and stats... when in truth, he deserves a lot of credit for overcoming this obstacle. Most players would have folded.

So... Yes, shorter career. Early career ending ailment. But still, Koufax became the best Left Handed Pitcher the game has ever had.

Ok…. This is fun but I’m all debated out! 😊

If you don’t like Koufax, I’m going with Eppa Rixey.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Robbie

The great Ernie Banks described what it was like to face Koufax. “It was frightening. He had that tremendous fastball that would rise,

Given that it's literally impossible for a fastball to rise, please forgive me if I take this with a grain of salt.

Originally Posted by Robbie

Randy Johnson was 9 or 10 inches taller than Sandy Koufax. So, even though Koufax pitched on a mound that was as much as 5 inches higher than the modern mound, Randy Johnson had the advantage of a much higher release point than Sandy Koufax. So, Johnson was taller, had longer arms, and released the ball at a point much closer to the plate.

Should Randy Johnson be considered greater because of the advantage of his height, or should Koufax be considered greater because he did not have the same advantages?

Sandy Koufax threw the ball as hard or harder than Randy Johnson did, but 35 years earlier… without the specialized training techniques, coaching, science on mechanics, health and other advances, and modern day pampering.

1) This is laughable. C'mon. Surely you can see the difference between height and a different pitching mound?

2) You don't know that Koufax threw harder than Johnson.


Of course guys like Aaron, Banks, Mays, and so on are going to be biased toward Koufax. How come you're not quoting Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn or Will Clark?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Given that it's literally impossible for a fastball to rise, please forgive me if I take this with a grain of salt.


1) This is laughable. C'mon. Surely you can see the difference between height and a different pitching mound?

2) You don't know that Koufax threw harder than Johnson.


Of course guys like Aaron, Banks, Mays, and so on are going to be biased toward Koufax. How come you're not quoting Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn or Will Clark?

Because they never faced Koufax. Duh

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cammb

Because they never faced Koufax. Duh

But Mays, Aaron and Banks faced Grove and Randy Johnson? News to me.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

But Mays, Aaron and Banks faced Grove and Randy Johnson? News to me.

Got to play by the rules, anecdotal evidence proves Koufax is the best and is superior to data; anecdotal evidence for others is irrelevant since they didn’t face Koufax.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Tabe

1) This is laughable. C'mon. Surely you can see the difference between height and a different pitching mound?

I sure can. That's the point. Koufax had more talent. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Tabe

Of course guys like Aaron, Banks, Mays, and so on are going to be biased toward Koufax. How come you're not quoting Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn or Will Clark?

How do you know that Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, Will Clark, and even Steve Balboni would not agree with Frank Robinson, Aaron, Mays, McCovey, Banks, Stargell, and other losers like that?

Have you ever heard Tony Gwynn say there was a greater left handed pitcher than Sandy Koufax? I grew up in SoCal, and I haven't. That does not mean he did not comment otherwise, however I think he would agree with Aaron, Mays, etc...

Anyway, I would love to hear a conversation between Willie McCovey (RIP) and Will Clark... It would likely go something like this...

CLARK: Hey Willie, what was it like hitting against Koufax?

McCOVEY: Pretty impossible. Getting a piece of a pitch was a victory. I was only able to manage a lifetime .148 batting average against Koufax.

CLARK: Well guys like you, Mays, Aaron, and Banks just don't know how to hit. You should really watch some film on me, Wade Boggs and Steve Balboni to see how real players do it! I would have hit at least .200 against a scrub like Koufax, Boggs would do so well that he would be known for more than riding a horse in Yankee Stadium, and Balboni would have hit an inside-the-park single.

McCOVEY: Thanks for the advice, Will.


In other words... Are you seriously putting up the opinions of Wade Boggs, and Will Clark at the same stature and weight as Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Ernie Banks, Willie McCovey, etc, etc.? Tony Gwynn...okay. Those other guys? Pleeeeeeeeeeeze!

[Jim65]

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Exactly. I'm sure Sandy's mother thought he was the best.... maybe her opinion should be used as fact.
STATS are STATS for a reason.
Otherwise, flip a coin to make your decisions. It's just as reliable and relevant as someone's opinion.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Then I guess you reject all advanced metrics because those are all statistical models based on the designer’s opinion. It is a good thing that Koufax has the stats to back up being called the greatest lefty of all time. Grove on the other hand doesn’t, he just has opinions of some who have made models.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The most unreliable way to judge a player is from someone elses opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they almost always stink.

Bob Uecker's career BA against Koufax was .429, if Uecker said Koufax was easy to hit against, would you believe him?

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Well, if I ever needed a life or death medical opinion, I will take the top Doctors at The Mayo Clinic or John Hopkins... but you should go to a $5 Fortune Teller..... since "opinions are like assholes..." Yes, a bit of a harsh example, but the point is that the quality of an opinion means everything.


Statistics have been USED AS A TOOL TO SUPPORT OPINIONS since the beginning of human's ability for creative thinking.

So... let's keep arguing, because....
My stats are better than your stats!

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Ralph Kiner said Ewell Blackwell was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, does anyone believe that Blackwell was an all-time great?

No because stats are facts, not opinions.

Peewee Reese also named Blackwell as the toughest he faced. Evidently he wasn't called "The Whip" for nothing.
I'm a huge fan of both Spahn and Koufax, but put me in the Lefty Grove column.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Robbie

In other words... Are you seriously putting up the opinions of Wade Boggs, and Will Clark at the same stature and weight as Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Ernie Banks, Willie McCovey, etc, etc.? Tony Gwynn...okay. Those other guys? Pleeeeeeeeeeeze!

Wade Boggs? Absolutely. Yeah, I'm going to listen to a guy who hit .356 - combined - his first 7 years in the majors.

Will Clark was just a name I thought of when trying to think of a left-handed hitter who played during Randy Johnson's career.

The point was to select some top guys who played against Johnson but not Koufax. Guys are ALWAYS going to have a bias toward the players they played with/against and not guys they only saw. And they're ALWAYS going to remember just the top part of their career not the other parts. When somebody talks about how tough Greg Maddux was to hit, they are ignoring the latter part of his career where he got lit up frequently. That's what Mays/Aaron/etc are doing.

It's hypocritical to uncritically accept the opinions of Mays & Aaron because they played against Koufax and not Johnson but not accept the (potential) opinions of guys who played against Johnson but not Koufax.

[7nohitter]

Bruce Hurst. That 12-6 curve was devastating.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by rats60

Except they do. The 1963 Yankees had the #2 offense in the AL. The 1965 Twins had the #2 offense in the AL. The 1966 Orioles had the #1 offense in the AL. I guess some expect the Dodgers to play the AL All Star team in the World Series for the stats to count.

Lol. I should have said "don't always" make champions. Of course, good stats do help!

I honestly didn't look into what the poster was saying. Of course,there have been times when having the best stats doesn't mean you're gonna win. The 1960 World Series being an obvious case in point, where the Yankees had 55 runs for the series and the Pirates had 27.