Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

Unless you can prove I am a bad actor I don't think you can make a material change to the item. Again if someone comes up with a smoking gun that puts the seller into a similar category as PWCC then that's a different story.

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade. He did it only for a perceived advantage knowing full well the risk he was taking, or actually NOT taking since Ebay says "hey, whatever you want Mr. Buyer.

What's your legal opinion on the situation Peter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Unless you can prove I am a bad actor I don't think you can make a material change to the item. Again if someone comes up with a smoking gun that puts the seller into a similar category as PWCC then that's a different story.

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade. He did it only for a perceived advantage knowing full well the risk he was taking, or actually NOT taking since Ebay says "hey, whatever you want Mr. Buyer.

What's your legal opinion on the situation Peter?

You're fighting the hypothetical by injecting too many externalities. Let's just assume I could prove to your satisfaction the pack was fake. Or you were there when I opened it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're fighting the hypothetical by injecting too many externalities. Let's just assume I could prove to your satisfaction the pack was fake. Or you were there when I opened it.

Maybe externalities, but I'm trying to keep it apples to apples. If I am there when you open it, ostensibly you are doing it with my blessing. The OP never was consulted before the card was cracked.

The other fundamental difference in the scenarios is that you almost HAVE to open the pack to find out it's no good (yes I know there are other ways to check a wax pack but a good resealer knows how to re-create them) this card DIDN'T HAVE TO BE CRACKED! Or had I mentioned that already?

For the record I have crossed cards in other company holders, as have others who have actually reported their results in threads on Net54. I tend to do about as well predicting the grades as I do with raw cards which is generally fairly well.

Oh, and you are ignoring a lot of my post

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Maybe externalities, but I'm trying to keep it apples to apples. If I am there when you open it, ostensibly you are doing it with my blessing. The OP never was consulted before the card was cracked.

The other fundamental difference in the scenarios is that you almost HAVE to open the pack to find out it's no good (yes I know there are other ways to check a wax pack but a good resealer knows how to re-create them) this card DIDN'T HAVE TO BE CRACKED! Or had I mentioned that already?

For the record I have crossed cards in other company holders, as have others who have actually reported their results in threads on Net54. I tend to do about as well predicting the grades as I do with raw cards which is generally fairly well.

Oh, and you are ignoring a lot of my post

In a world where TPGs acted in good faith they WOULD have to crack a card out of a holder to be sure they could cross it. There is no way they can adequately assess the edges of most cards through the slab, in my opinion.

[ahumes13]

1- it’s not OK on general principle to crack a card, submit for regrading and return when the card is “A”, or is not the grade the submitter wants. No honest person disputes this.
2- it’s not OK to sell a card in an inferior holder that has been rejected from other grading services as not being a number grade, without disclosing as much in the sale. No honest person disputes this.

The OP is only one they knows if #2 is true, to me it seems pretty obvious. If so, I’d suggest recognizing the karma in play. Reach out to the buyer and negotiate a reasonable purchase price based on a “A” grade. Many of the previous posts illustrate the reasons why he should want to put and end to this, as should the OP.

If the OP and buyer are both a bit unhappy with the result then that’s probably the best result.

[1880nonsports]

I subbed about 100 cards to GAI a little after they started - mostly N28 and N29 cards as well as a few cigarette packs. Quite a few were first graded. I believe that most (if not all but??) were clean and unaltered as at the time I was wary of things being done to cards (I actually was at a show once and SAW someone using a SISSOR on a card) so I looked quite closely for rolled edges coloring etc.. Not every GAI card is suspect BUT it's on the buyer if he ALTERS what was a card in a holder into what is now a card and a holder. Forget his intentions or if he knew anything about GAI or PSA or SGC or whomever - don't believe relevance.

I sold and/or cracked EVERY ONE OUT before AND after they didn't open "Monday".

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

In my hypothetical, I stated that the buyer of the pack opens it while on camera, for a YouTube video. Let's say a few honest, reputable witnesses are also there.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade.

When we were discussing someone starting a new, technically modern and objective grading service, many, many posters here commented that it was essential to look at the edge of a card to determine whether it had been trimmed. Also the thickness of the card is important, and variances in thickness, like whether the corners are thinner, indicating they may have been spread wider so as to trim them sharp.

Now you seem to be saying, in the passage I bolded above, that cards can be graded, and doctored cards including trim and corner rework can be identified, while the card is still slabbed. You're also implying the texture of a card is not important to a grader, or when identifying doctored or counterfeit cards.

So, which is it? Can a $5,000 card be properly evaluated while in a plastic holder (rendering such attributes as card thickness and edge inspection impossible to examine,) or is the evaluation process involved enough to require the examination of the card while out of the holder?

The only way to know what is in an unopened pack is to open it. If that act reveals a deception, then the pack was sold under false pretenses, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not. In this case, the fraudulent pack cannot be resold to someone else and that is a good thing.

The only way to know if the Gehrig was genuine or doctored was to give it a thorough inspection, meaning, cracked out of that virtually valueless holder. This act revealed a deception. The card, when sold, was mis-represented, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not.

In this case, the card can still be resold for what it truly is - the reason the seller is upset is that the card can not be resold for what it was pretending to be.