Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is what I don't understand. If the holder is essentially worthless, because nobody values a GAI grade, why is no longer having the card in the worthless holder a great loss? It makes no logical sense.

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

In other words, the only value it could have had in round 2 was to deceive. So the seller has now been deprived of any ability to overrepresent the card (not that he did the first time, I will assume he was innocent). I'm not sure I feel badly about that.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

A guy with over 11k feedback is unsuspecting?????


Wow just wow.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

A guy with over 11k feedback is unsuspecting?????


Wow just wow.

You think a buyer who suspects the card is doctored is going to spend $5k on it?

Wow, just wow.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Mark17

You think a buyer who suspects the card is doctored is going to spend $5k on it?

Wow, just wow.

He took a gamble on the card so he could triple his money. It didn’t work out in his favor. So did he suspect it? Maybe not. Did he think it was a gamble worth taking??? I vote yes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

He took a gamble on the card so he could triple his money. It didn’t work out in his favor. So did he suspect it? Maybe not. Did he think it was a gamble worth taking??? I vote yes.

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

I can’t answer for Dave but would a satisfactory answer be - he bought the card a long time ago and later it was revealed that GAI graded cards have issues. Instead of taking the gamble he’ll auction it off as is even if it might be worth 3X the value in another holder. The new buyer doesn’t mind the gamble and drops $5K on the card. The gamble doesn’t pay off.

If the card crosses at a PSA 7 Dave isn’t going to get more money from the buyer. And I’m sure this happens with GAI cards. They aren’t all bad but they come with inherent risk. I’d assume someone with 11k feedback would know this. So like others have said this opens up a can of worms for every GAI card that is sold. It’s a free gamble for a buyer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

I can’t answer for Dave but would a satisfactory answer be - he bought the card a long time ago and later it was revealed that GAI graded cards have issues. Instead of taking the gamble he’ll auction it off as is even if it might be worth 3X the value in another holder. The new buyer doesn’t mind the gamble and drops $5K on the card. The gamble doesn’t pay off.

If the card crosses at a PSA 7 Dave isn’t going to get more money from the buyer. And I’m sure this happens with GAI cards. They aren’t all bad but they come with inherent risk. I’d assume someone with 11k feedback would know this. So like others have said this opens up a can of worms for every GAI card that is sold. It’s a free gamble for a buyer.

If I thought a GAI 7 Gehrig was legit and fairly graded, and it was worth 3x in a PSA or SGC holder, it's a no brainer I would take the gamble. It's not rational to leave that much money on the table.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.

Let me check your math, Ben.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.

All the more reason to try, maybe they would have missed the alteration.

But seriously, I don't understand why, unless he knew the card was bad, the OP didn't try given the huge upside.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

Actually, that holder had one other value. It positively identifies that as the same card originally sold. That's one possibility no one seems to mention. If it was my card, that would be my concern. If the buyer returns a trimmed 1933 Lou Gehrig, how can I be sure it's actually the card that was in the GAI slab? The buyer supposedly bought the card and got it regraded by PSA in one week. Many wondered how he was able to get such fast service. What if he didn't return the card he was sold, but a card he had submitted that was rejected by PSA? He didn't even return the GAI slab it was in. Why not?

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Actually, that holder had one other value. It positively identifies that as the same card originally sold. That's one possibility no one seems to mention. If it was my card, that would be my concern. If the buyer returns a trimmed 1933 Lou Gehrig, how can I be sure it's actually the card that was in the GAI slab? The buyer supposedly bought the card and got it regraded by PSA in one week. Many wondered how he was able to get such fast service. What if he didn't return the card he was sold, but a card he had submitted that was rejected by PSA? He didn't even return the GAI slab it was in. Why not?

In the world of hypotheticals, maybe the buyer cracked it out, got a 7, took an altered one and returned it. Double dipped, in effect.

Seller is still screwed.

[nsaddict]

Originally Posted by nsaddict View Post
If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I’m in the camp you crack it out it’s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

Same result if you open a wax pack? < Peter’s response ( not sure how to quote in blue box fashion)
__________________


So Peter, if I buy a 1961 Topps unopened pack and open it, I can send it back if I don’t pull a Mantle?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

So Peter, if I buy a 1961 Topps unopened pack and open it, I can send it back if I don’t pull a Mantle?

No, because I'm assuming in your hypo you got what you paid for. But if you pay for an unaltered card and receive an altered card then, yes, you should be able to send it back.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Mark17

No, because I'm assuming in your hypo you got what you paid for. But if you pay for an unaltered card and receive an altered card then, yes, you should be able to send it back.

Some cards receive a minimum size designation that haven’t been trimmed. They get resubmitted and get a grade. So if a card has a PSA grade, gets cracked and gets submitted to SGC and gets an A after a crack out is this on the seller as well?

I think the bottom line here is that a crossover can be done without a crack out. The seemingly greedy buyer didn’t want that influence (which is insane). The card should be graded whatever it deserves. After the crack out I think the return is void. Unless there is proof of intent by the seller.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

So Peter, if I buy a 1961 Topps unopened pack and open it, I can send it back if I don’t pull a Mantle?

It looks like, given the new precedent, yes. You could buy a GAI slabbed pack, crack it out, search it, pull anything you want and replace it with whatever you want, reseal it, send it to PSA knowing its going to fail, then send it back to the seller, saying it failed, and get a refund. Pretty sure that's the pack equivalent of what happened here, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aplyon86]

Originally Posted by conor912

It looks like, given the new precedent, yes. You could buy a GAI slabbed pack, crack it out, search it, pull anything you want and replace it with whatever you want, reseal it, send it to PSA knowing its going to fail, then send it back to the seller, saying it failed, and get a refund. Pretty sure that's the pack equivalent of what happened here, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Agree 100% (assuming the seller didn't know it was altered or try to cross it over with the same result). Anyone who agrees with the buyer, do you have and GAI cards on eBay and if so, what is your eBay ID? You have a new customer with me.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[ullmandds]

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Actually, that holder had one other value. It positively identifies that as the same card originally sold. That's one possibility no one seems to mention. If it was my card, that would be my concern. If the buyer returns a trimmed 1933 Lou Gehrig, how can I be sure it's actually the card that was in the GAI slab? The buyer supposedly bought the card and got it regraded by PSA in one week. Many wondered how he was able to get such fast service. What if he didn't return the card he was sold, but a card he had submitted that was rejected by PSA? He didn't even return the GAI slab it was in. Why not?

There are plenty of pictures of the card that was sold on ebay, right on the listing itself. Comparing the card sold to the card returned would be simple.

[bobbyw8469]

In this case, the card can still be resold for what it truly is - the reason the seller is upset is that the card can not be resold for what it was pretending to be.

As much as you don't want to believe it, the GAI holder did have SOME value - if only for the sheer gamblers aspect of it as to why this buyer bought it in the first place. GAI IS (well.....was....at one time) a respected name. Mike Baker IS a good grader. The buyer who cracked it out was hoping to make a monetary score by getting it into a PSA holder. He knew he was not getting a fake card. The same can't be said for a PRO holder. So, yes, the GAI card DID have some value. But now the seller doesn't even have that. He is forced to refund, and is getting a card that doesn't even have the GAI stamp of approval anymore. His option is now, as much as I hate to say it, is to play the "grading" game!!! What if it eventually gets into a PSA 7 holder?? All of the sudden it is now deemed "acceptable". I, for one, am dismayed that this is what the baseball card collection has become.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

As much as you don't want to believe it, the GAI holder did have SOME value - if only for the sheer gamblers aspect of it as to why this buyer bought it in the first place. GAI IS (well.....was....at one time) a respected name. Mike Baker IS a good grader. The buyer who cracked it out was hoping to make a monetary score by getting it into a PSA holder. He knew he was not getting a fake card. The same can't be said for a PRO holder. So, yes, the GAI card DID have some value. But now the seller doesn't even have that. He is forced to refund, and is getting a card that doesn't even have the GAI stamp of approval anymore. His option is now, as much as I hate to say it, is to play the "grading" game!!! What if it eventually gets into a PSA 7 holder?? All of the sudden it is now deemed "acceptable". I, for one, am dismayed that this is what the baseball card collection has become.

The root problem is this: The card is doctored. The seller wants to sell it at a price commensurate with that of an undoctored card. That GAI holder gave him cover, now that cover is removed, and the card stands naked of its previous misrepresentation. It is what it is.

How many people on this site keep repeating: Buy the card, not the holder.

My opinion is that if had graded a PSA 1, I would be 100% on the side of the seller. We see all sorts of examples of grading companies having a difference of opinion on relative grade. But when a card is doctored, that is a whole different thing. That's deception on the part of somebody (probably not the seller, but somebody.)

[bobbyw8469]

The root problem is this: The card is doctored.

Says who?? PSA???? PSA missed a ton of doctored cards. GAI says it wasn't. What if it gets resubmitted and actually gets a SGC and/or PSA grade?? Is it no longer doctored?? This whole grading thing has gotten kinda insane.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Says who?? PSA???? PSA missed a ton of doctored cards. GAI says it wasn't. What if it gets resubmitted and actually gets a SGC and/or PSA grade?? Is it no longer doctored?? This whole grading thing has gotten kinda insane.

Agreed, more details regarding the (alleged) doctoring would be helpful.

As I said before, I think it's way easier to miss a doctored card than to see alterations that do not exist.

You and others make good points. It's a good discussion where I think we all see each others' point of view, and just put more weight on one side of the argument or the other.

Assuming the card is, in fact, doctored, I am glad it has been outed, and not still floating around in that 7 holder.