Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Mark17

You think a buyer who suspects the card is doctored is going to spend $5k on it?

Wow, just wow.

He took a gamble on the card so he could triple his money. It didn’t work out in his favor. So did he suspect it? Maybe not. Did he think it was a gamble worth taking??? I vote yes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

He took a gamble on the card so he could triple his money. It didn’t work out in his favor. So did he suspect it? Maybe not. Did he think it was a gamble worth taking??? I vote yes.

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

I can’t answer for Dave but would a satisfactory answer be - he bought the card a long time ago and later it was revealed that GAI graded cards have issues. Instead of taking the gamble he’ll auction it off as is even if it might be worth 3X the value in another holder. The new buyer doesn’t mind the gamble and drops $5K on the card. The gamble doesn’t pay off.

If the card crosses at a PSA 7 Dave isn’t going to get more money from the buyer. And I’m sure this happens with GAI cards. They aren’t all bad but they come with inherent risk. I’d assume someone with 11k feedback would know this. So like others have said this opens up a can of worms for every GAI card that is sold. It’s a free gamble for a buyer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

I can’t answer for Dave but would a satisfactory answer be - he bought the card a long time ago and later it was revealed that GAI graded cards have issues. Instead of taking the gamble he’ll auction it off as is even if it might be worth 3X the value in another holder. The new buyer doesn’t mind the gamble and drops $5K on the card. The gamble doesn’t pay off.

If the card crosses at a PSA 7 Dave isn’t going to get more money from the buyer. And I’m sure this happens with GAI cards. They aren’t all bad but they come with inherent risk. I’d assume someone with 11k feedback would know this. So like others have said this opens up a can of worms for every GAI card that is sold. It’s a free gamble for a buyer.

If I thought a GAI 7 Gehrig was legit and fairly graded, and it was worth 3x in a PSA or SGC holder, it's a no brainer I would take the gamble. It's not rational to leave that much money on the table.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I thought a GAI 7 Gehrig was legit and fairly graded, and it was worth 3x in a PSA or SGC holder, it's a no brainer I would take the gamble. It's not rational to leave that much money on the table.

Would you crack it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Would you crack it?

If I believed in it yes; I think the chances of PSA or SGC crossing a GAI graded card in a slab are probably not good just on principle.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I believed in it yes; I think the chances of PSA or SGC crossing a GAI graded card in a slab are probably not good just on principle.

Obviously the buyer agreed which is why he decided to crack it. That said, the reasoning for cracking is irrelevant. Its cracked. The buyer is not returning the item he purchased, a 1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig in a GAI 7 slab. He even lied to eBay about it and we're going to pretend he didn't know exactly what he was doing? BS

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

Unless you can prove I am a bad actor I don't think you can make a material change to the item. Again if someone comes up with a smoking gun that puts the seller into a similar category as PWCC then that's a different story.

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade. He did it only for a perceived advantage knowing full well the risk he was taking, or actually NOT taking since Ebay says "hey, whatever you want Mr. Buyer.

What's your legal opinion on the situation Peter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Unless you can prove I am a bad actor I don't think you can make a material change to the item. Again if someone comes up with a smoking gun that puts the seller into a similar category as PWCC then that's a different story.

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade. He did it only for a perceived advantage knowing full well the risk he was taking, or actually NOT taking since Ebay says "hey, whatever you want Mr. Buyer.

What's your legal opinion on the situation Peter?

You're fighting the hypothetical by injecting too many externalities. Let's just assume I could prove to your satisfaction the pack was fake. Or you were there when I opened it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're fighting the hypothetical by injecting too many externalities. Let's just assume I could prove to your satisfaction the pack was fake. Or you were there when I opened it.

Maybe externalities, but I'm trying to keep it apples to apples. If I am there when you open it, ostensibly you are doing it with my blessing. The OP never was consulted before the card was cracked.

The other fundamental difference in the scenarios is that you almost HAVE to open the pack to find out it's no good (yes I know there are other ways to check a wax pack but a good resealer knows how to re-create them) this card DIDN'T HAVE TO BE CRACKED! Or had I mentioned that already?

For the record I have crossed cards in other company holders, as have others who have actually reported their results in threads on Net54. I tend to do about as well predicting the grades as I do with raw cards which is generally fairly well.

Oh, and you are ignoring a lot of my post

[1880nonsports]

I subbed about 100 cards to GAI a little after they started - mostly N28 and N29 cards as well as a few cigarette packs. Quite a few were first graded. I believe that most (if not all but??) were clean and unaltered as at the time I was wary of things being done to cards (I actually was at a show once and SAW someone using a SISSOR on a card) so I looked quite closely for rolled edges coloring etc.. Not every GAI card is suspect BUT it's on the buyer if he ALTERS what was a card in a holder into what is now a card and a holder. Forget his intentions or if he knew anything about GAI or PSA or SGC or whomever - don't believe relevance.

I sold and/or cracked EVERY ONE OUT before AND after they didn't open "Monday".

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

In my hypothetical, I stated that the buyer of the pack opens it while on camera, for a YouTube video. Let's say a few honest, reputable witnesses are also there.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade.

When we were discussing someone starting a new, technically modern and objective grading service, many, many posters here commented that it was essential to look at the edge of a card to determine whether it had been trimmed. Also the thickness of the card is important, and variances in thickness, like whether the corners are thinner, indicating they may have been spread wider so as to trim them sharp.

Now you seem to be saying, in the passage I bolded above, that cards can be graded, and doctored cards including trim and corner rework can be identified, while the card is still slabbed. You're also implying the texture of a card is not important to a grader, or when identifying doctored or counterfeit cards.

So, which is it? Can a $5,000 card be properly evaluated while in a plastic holder (rendering such attributes as card thickness and edge inspection impossible to examine,) or is the evaluation process involved enough to require the examination of the card while out of the holder?

The only way to know what is in an unopened pack is to open it. If that act reveals a deception, then the pack was sold under false pretenses, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not. In this case, the fraudulent pack cannot be resold to someone else and that is a good thing.

The only way to know if the Gehrig was genuine or doctored was to give it a thorough inspection, meaning, cracked out of that virtually valueless holder. This act revealed a deception. The card, when sold, was mis-represented, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not.

In this case, the card can still be resold for what it truly is - the reason the seller is upset is that the card can not be resold for what it was pretending to be.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.

Let me check your math, Ben.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.

All the more reason to try, maybe they would have missed the alteration.

But seriously, I don't understand why, unless he knew the card was bad, the OP didn't try given the huge upside.