USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Was the point of the meeting? to show just how difficult it was to catch altered cards ?

Yeah it struck me as a subtle way of telling people, hey you can probably get altered cards past TPG's

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Yeah it struck me as a subtle way of telling people, hey you can probably get altered cards past TPG's

Exactly Scott Was thinking the same thing here

Big Money Players get put on notice first.

[Al C.risafulli]

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

Al. a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors as a whole don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

AL, a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

The most powerful force I can think of to solve most anything is market force -- people acting in the manner most consistent with their economic interests. How does that pertain here? If and when there is a TPG alternative that through the use of technology can weed out alterations, then to hold value cards will have to reholdered by this new method.

Yes, I recognize that there is skepticism such a new grading method will come into being. But let's proceed on the assumption that it does come into being. It would not then be up to the seller to determine what grading method will create the most value for his/her card. It would be up to the buyer, and what rational buyer would not prefer the card in the new TPG holder, all other things being equal (e.g., player, issue, grade).

What am I missing with this analysis?

Edited to add that what I am saying IS consistent with the notion "that it is all about the money". The incentive to create a new TPG using technology to weed out alterations is because the founder(s) of such a company I believe can make a lot of money. And should that come to pass, then what buyer before spending his/her money on a high grade vintage card would not want to see it in this new TPG's holder?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al. a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors as a whole don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

I disagree with this. I do think they want the hobby cleaned up. The problem is the ability to detect alterations. Once there is a company that can do this at a high rate, I think buyers will want their cards to be inspected upon purchase. Cash is king and the buyers hold all the power. Once altered cards can no longer be sold to buyers, only then will things change for the better.

[Johnny630]

Speaking as a tiny money guy if I was a Big Money Investor and I was planning on dipping into this Industry after after having studied the last 30 years of the hobby I would believe all the big money in this industry has already been made .....meaning forget it invest in muni bonds lmao

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I disagree with this. I do think they want the hobby cleaned up. The problem is the ability to detect alterations. Once there is a company that can do this at a high rate, I think buyers will want their cards to be inspected upon purchase. Cash is king and the buyers hold all the power. Once altered cards can no longer be sold to buyers, only then will things change for the better.

The word is now widespread that TPGs either suck at detecting alterations or they're turning a blind eye. Has it impacted sales substantially? Or are people still buying like rabbits on Viagra?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The word is now widespread that TPGs either suck at detecting alterations or they're turning a blind eye. Has it impacted sales substantially? Or are people still buying like rabbits on Viagra?

Sadly people are still blindingly buying like rabbits on viagra it’s gonna crash just not yet but predict it will

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The word is now widespread that TPGs either suck at detecting alterations or they're turning a blind eye. Has it impacted sales substantially? Or are people still buying like rabbits on Viagra?

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Sadly people are still blindingly buying like rabbits on viagra it’s gonna crash just not yet but predict it will

I sincerely hope it is going to crash and all the bad people will disappear.

In reality I see absolutely nothing happening. Like has been posted it is all about the $. Nothing happened in any case I can think of. A few idiots got out after the Mastro debacle. The smart scum that gave the collectors the big FU are bigger now than before Mastro got lightly slapped on his fingers.

As far as PSA, they have gave the big FU to collectors for years. The dumb collectors line up and say "please sir can I have another".

I am at the point I couldn't care less about the dumb lemmings.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The word is now widespread that TPGs either suck at detecting alterations or they're turning a blind eye. Has it impacted sales substantially? Or are people still buying like rabbits on Viagra?

No, Yes. But...…...let's see how the picture changes if/when this new TPG comes into being.

The situation reminds me in a way of something my company encounters with commercial real estate. The parking lots are meant for customers and employees. No overnight parking is allowed. Both of these rules used to be blatantly flouted despite signage and leaflets announcing violators will be towed. Then one day/night we started towing. From that point on the rules were followed.

The point is that talk is cheap. And that includes talk about this new fantastic TPG on the horizon. But IMO the actions people are taking now are not necessarily indicative of how they will act once the circumstances change -- which in the case of this hobby is a TPG that will allow a prospective buyer to know if the card is altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Corey I hope you're right. That said, I think TPGs are at least capable of doing a much better job now. The incentives apparently lie in not doing so.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

I disagree with this. I do think they want the hobby cleaned up. The problem is the ability to detect alterations. Once there is a company that can do this at a high rate, I think buyers will want their cards to be inspected upon purchase. Cash is king and the buyers hold all the power. Once altered cards can no longer be sold to buyers, only then will things change for the better.

Regarding their inability to detect alterations...

True in most cases, but I think there's more going on. Many of those trimmed cards are ridiculously short in their holders, and are so obviously trimmed. The amount of air space between the cards' borders and the "frame" is astounding, and there's no explanation as to why those cards passed. Some of the re-touched and re-colored cards are obvious upon first glance. Countless examples of amateurish restoration.

I could go on and on, but bottom-line is that PSA is either...

A. Spending no time inspecting these
B. Is incompetent to perform the one thing they're supposed to do
C. Is granting favorable grades to certain entities
D. Is simply turning a blind eye in many cases

It can only be one, or a mixture of all 4 of the reasons above. And none of those reasons bode well for them. I know that the registry crowd and heavily-invested client base will continue to support them, regardless. But the rest of us should take a stand.

Sorry to ramble, and didn't mean to nitpick the quoted post, as I agree with everything else that was said. But if PSA would just address the damned issue head-on and admit some level of responsibility, it might represent a good start towards fixing this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In a world when in the middle of this unprecedented scandal Steve Sloan can get up in front of the PSA community and not even mention it, that should tell us something.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

This

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

Al, I can perhaps understand your feelings about the Beatles. But what about those nice London boys, the Sex Pistols who were punk pioneers? Strangely enough, many have said they were talentless outlaws. I must admit to being mildly amused by their band names, Johnny Rotten and Sid Vicious. I was living in London at the time when they hit the scene, causing quite a commotion and lots of controversy.