Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

My nose is already plugged, but a 1 of 1 PSA 10 with a recent cert # in a new holder, given what has been revealed in these threads and BO would give me some hesitation about bidding unless I was Al Oliver’s mother.

Maybe it’s been submitted only once, but PSA has had an opportunity to grade this card for over 25 years, and never before

I’m so glad that I’ve had the common sense and not the wherewithal to play the Registry game and I had the opportunity to see cert #00000001 before the McNall/Gretzky purchase.

I’ve never submitted a card to PSA AND i’m proud of it. To each his own.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

No.

I could buy an altered card from anyone.

I look at PWCC as more of a stock exchange at this point. I think that is their ultimate goal.

Please don't confuse me brushing off fraud as part of the game as suggesting it isn't repulsive. It is. I just am saying that you can't just quit buying from the seller that dominates the market because they have sold some questionable cards. I got a great deal on the last $20 purchase I made. I am willing to buy from anyone if I like the cards.

I think people are underestimating how large of a percentage of $0.99 EBAY auctions PWCC represents.

Some? You make it sound like it is a trivial, insignificant amount of cards.
Have you paid any attention at all to the Blowout thread?

Originally Posted by frankbmd

My nose is already plugged, but a 1 of 1 PSA 10 with a recent cert # in a new holder, given what has been revealed in these threads and BO would give me some hesitation about bidding unless I was Al Oliver’s mother.

Maybe it’s been submitted only once, but PSA has had an opportunity to grade this card for over 25 years, and never before

I’m so glad that I’ve had the common sense and not the wherewithal to play the Registry game and I had the opportunity to see cert #00000001 before the McNall/Gretzky purchase.

I’ve never submitted a card to PSA AND i’m proud of it. To each his own.

No kidding, Frank.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by irv

Some? You make it sound like it is a trivial, insignificant amount of cards.
Have you paid any attention at all to the Blowout thread?



No kidding, Frank.

I have been following along for past few months when the dudes on Blowout outed the modern cards first and naturally have been following along on these recent revelations. You may have missed the comment where I was listed as someone who had purchased from one of them.

PWCC is auctioning off over 19,000 cards this month alone. If they even average 15,000 a month that is 180,000 cards in a year. If a few hundred have been identified obviously that isn't good for anyone but in relation to the number of cards they sell it is a fraction.

Lets say that 200 are deemed altered. Obviously a higher number than anyone wants. It is just over one tenth of a percent of the cards sold during a 12 month period. If anyone doesn't think they have this same risk when buying a card from any seller they are dreaming.

The 52 Mantle that kicked this storm off would have been gladly accepted from all auction houses. Goodwin auctions sold a bad 52 Mantle PSA 8 that when the slab was sent to PSA broke open on Joe Orlando's desk.

The fake Mexican slabs were a huge issue for awhile. Anyone could have bought a Jordan at that time that was bad. Fraud exists. It seems like a day doesn't go by where someone is outing an auction of a fake card and they still have bids from people thinking they are getting a steal.

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

Many cards change hands over and over again. Many of the cards they sell will surface in other auctions and ignorance will be bliss.

[mq711]

I think the premise of the poll is to gauge who will no longer/continue to buy from a dealer who sells known altered cards and not who is at fault. Not that it will affect their bottom line, but I won't buy from them again because of their, at best, deceptive behavior. If fraud is an accepted behavior then the dealers who play it clean will have to resort to such tactics to stay in business and then what are we stuck with?

I find it odd that experienced collectors think they were totally in the dark on what they were selling or that they didn't know it was wrong (that excuse didn't even work for George on Seinfeld). My 2cents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A good point. Because most dealers tend not to post, we may overlook that honest dealers -- and there are many -- have also been hurt by the PWCC blitz. The never-ending slew of record-smashing prices -- and I am on record as not trusting many of them -- attracts consignments away from others. And when these record prices are on cards that turned out to be altered, the problem is compounded.

[Republicaninmass]

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It all depends how you do the analysis. David's methodology seems to assume one is buying a randomly selected card. He may be right on that premise but I am not sure it's a meaningful way to look at it. Iif the inquiry is framed as Ted frames it then yes obviously the risk of buying a high end card is at least somewhat higher in PWCC. I would quibble with exponentially though.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

During this time frame there has been a massive shift in market share. PWCC is by far the largest EBAY auction house and sells immensely more graded cards than anyone. They offer 99 cent auctions on the best cards that come to market. Probstein who one could consider their next closest competitor lists tons of items with high starting prices and while that may protect the seller it certainly isn't as appealing for the buyers.

The massive market shift we have seen has made it a very wise decision for many to stop listing their own cards and simply hand them over to PWCC. The record prices attract new submissions and the cycle repeats. These same sellers could have chosen to list the cards themselves but saw that the platform and number of buyers was immense and I assume the anonymity is a major attraction too.

There are countless EBAY sellers who list cards at BIN's and when they don't move ship them off to PWCC to let them fly.

EBAY is the ocean and PWCC is the most popular beach. Getting out of the water because a shark is present may save you for a moment but that same shark is going to go visit a different beach.

I live on Orlando where traffic is a nightmare. There is massive construction taking place on I-4. It is a zoo. In theory my greatest risk of an accident is there yet the closest I have come to getting into an accident was last weekend when a women almost backed into my beloved 911 Turbo. Risk is everywhere.

Exhibitman you disagree with everything I say but you are wrong in suggesting I think you and others are nuts for avoiding PWCC. Quite frankly most of you have already done so and it will have no impact on their business. I am simply saying those of us that look at the landscape and have made a conscious decision to be willing to continue to buy from them aren't nuts. I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A good point. Because most dealers tend not to post, we may overlook that honest dealers -- and there are many -- have also been hurt by the PWCC blitz. The never-ending slew of record-smashing prices -- and I am on record as not trusting many of them -- attracts consignments away from others. And when these record prices are on cards that turned out to be altered, the problem is compounded.

Agreed. And compounded even more when the honest dealers finally throw in the towel because they can’t compete. They figure no hammer came down on PWCC, so if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. They ask Moser to “conserve” cards for them. Moser explains that he has more work than he can handle, but here’s a number of friend who will hook you up. Highly recommended. Almost as good as me. In fact, I trained hm. And round and round we go.