Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Okay, it seems I need to dumb this down for you.

You're going to spend $10K on merchandise (say a used car instead of a baseball card).

Who do you buy from?

Someone who might be a thief or someone who has been arrested for theft?

If you truly think the risk of being defrauded is the same from both sources - there are a lot of people who want your name and phone number.

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

Don't worry, they will preserve another one.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Don't worry, they will preserve another one.

Pop 1 out of 534 submitted.

254,471 cards submitted from this set.

Lots of dedicated collectors.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Pop 1 out of 534 submitted.

254,471 cards submitted from this set.

Lots of dedicated collectors.

Way out of my league. There is no way I can afford to pay over $6300 for a $10 card.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Way out of my league. There is no way I can afford to pay over $6300 for a $10 card.

I have never spent this much on a card.

People have to understand there are so many dedicated collectors to various sets. When you look at the registry for this set Charles Merkel is number one. Maybe he will pass. At this time there are twenty complete sets. Perhaps a few pass but someone will step up to the plate. At last check there were 14 bidders and 33 watchers so it is definitely attracting attention.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have never spent this much on a card.

People have to understand there are so many dedicated collectors to various sets. When you look at the registry for this set Charles Merkel is number one. Maybe he will pass. At this time there are twenty complete sets. Perhaps a few pass but someone will step up to the plate. At last check there were 14 bidders and 33 watchers so it is definitely attracting attention.

I completely understand that BLEEPING registry. I might know a guy that talks a lot of crap but secretly has a popular complete set that is around #4 last time he checked. He still wouldn't buy from PWCC though.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I completely understand that BLEEPING registry. I might know a guy that talks a lot of crap but secretly has a popular complete set that is around #4 last time he checked. He still wouldn't buy from PWCC though.

Cool.

Some will and some won't. Many wouldn't before so time will tell how many who currently will won't. I don't think many will be able to say no.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Pop 1 out of 534 submitted.

254,471 cards submitted from this set.

Lots of dedicated collectors.

And that 10 is so much nicer than the much more affordable 9 because? Oh, right, I forgot. PSA graded it and PSA has been shown to be infallible. And the 10 is being sold by PWCC, a notoriously honest seller. LOL, whatever. To each his own.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

And that 10 is so much nicer than the much more affordable 9 because? Oh, right, I forgot. PSA graded it and PSA has been shown to be infallible. And the 10 is being sold by PWCC, a notoriously honest seller. LOL, whatever. To each his own.

People to choose to spend their money on different shit. Charles Merkel is loaded. If you look at his set it is filled with 10's.

I choose to spend money on wrestling cards. Something most don't. My wife likes ridiculously expensive shoes and purses. Many would argue both are dumb ways to spend your money but to each their own.

Who knows if he is even bidding but judging by the fact there are now 15 bidders this card isn't flying under the radar that is for sure.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Who knows if he is even bidding but judging by the fact there are now 15 bidders this card isn't flying under the radar that is for sure.

So there are 15 guys that have ridiculous money to spend on cards don't know about this scandal yet? Shocking. I'm sure they have nothing better to do than read a message board about baseball cards like us. Out of all the collectors we're talking about 15 here with big wallets who are obviously all about the flip anyway. Not surprised the bidding is so high. Not at all.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

People to choose to spend their money on different shit. Charles Merkel is loaded. If you look at his set it is filled with 10's.

I choose to spend money on wrestling cards. Something most don't. My wife likes ridiculously expensive shoes and purses. Many would argue both are dumb ways to spend your money but to each their own.

Who knows if he is even bidding but judging by the fact there are now 15 bidders this card isn't flying under the radar that is for sure.

One word: Registry. I cannot lie -- that was a brilliant idea. PSA creates a market for cards that it apparently cannot even grade accurately, at least based on the examples shown here, and then justifiably relies on the egos of people who: A) have much more money than sense; and B) buy the flip, not the card. Ingenious. I wish I had thought of that because it is literally the perfect scam. People feel good about falling for it and actually get recognized by PSA for doing so. How much better could it possibly get? When I see an otherwise $10 card going for 4 or 5 figures because there is a dick-measuring contest going on, it always makes me laugh. Again, whatever. If you have stupid money, I guess you are entitled to be stupid.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

One word: Registry. I cannot lie -- that was a brilliant idea. PSA creates a market for cards that it apparently cannot even grade accurately, at least based on the examples shown here, and then justifiably relies on the egos of people who: A) have much more money than sense; and B) buy the flip, not the card. Ingenious. I wish I had thought of that because it is literally the perfect scam. People feel good about falling for it and actually get recognized by PSA for doing so. How much better could it possibly get? When I see an otherwise $10 card going for 4 or 5 figures because there is a dick-measuring contest going on, it always makes me laugh. Again, whatever. If you have stupid money, I guess you are entitled to be stupid.

The registry was brilliant. I have paid 2k for a $2 card. Haha

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

One word: Registry. I cannot lie -- that was a brilliant idea. PSA creates a market for cards that it apparently cannot even grade accurately, at least based on the examples shown here, and then justifiably relies on the egos of people who: A) have much more money than sense; and B) buy the flip, not the card. Ingenious. I wish I had thought of that because it is literally the perfect scam. People feel good about falling for it and actually get recognized by PSA for doing so. How much better could it possibly get? When I see an otherwise $10 card going for 4 or 5 figures because there is a dick-measuring contest going on, it always makes me laugh. Again, whatever. If you have stupid money, I guess you are entitled to be stupid.

It was transformative in terms of elevating worthless commons into high priced commodities as guys built their 50s sets. If I recall correctly the first PSA 8 Wehmeier from 52 Topps went for 25K or more. But more generally PSA well understood the mindset of many of its wealthy collectors.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

One word: Registry. I cannot lie -- that was a brilliant idea. PSA creates a market for cards that it apparently cannot even grade accurately, at least based on the examples shown here, and then justifiably relies on the egos of people who: A) have much more money than sense; and B) buy the flip, not the card. Ingenious. I wish I had thought of that because it is literally the perfect scam. People feel good about falling for it and actually get recognized by PSA for doing so. How much better could it possibly get? When I see an otherwise $10 card going for 4 or 5 figures because there is a dick-measuring contest going on, it always makes me laugh. Again, whatever. If you have stupid money, I guess you are entitled to be stupid.

Given how wildly popular the registry is, isn't it in PSA's advantage to keep as many high grade cards in circulation as possible? And wouldn't they want to turn a blind eye to some of these restorations so that more collectors can get involved in registry collecting?

And every business wants to have happy customers who are good for repeat business. So who is happier- the guy whose cards get rejected for possible tampering, or the guy who consistently receives 8's, 9's, and 10's?

Just saying.

[Gusturd]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

Not a grading expert, but wouldn't the blue shadow around the left half of Oliver's head or the print spot on the end of Hebner's nose prevent it from being a 10?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Gusturd

Not a grading expert, but wouldn't the blue shadow around the left half of Oliver's head or the print spot on the end of Hebner's nose prevent it from being a 10?

Both photos are out of focus. I assume this is common with the set. No real knowledge of it and just was showing an example where a collector would be faced with the ultimate delimma of either sticking to their guns and boycotting PWCC or going after their set.


Edit: EBAY listing showing it appears the photo is out of focus.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RICH-HEBNER...ddf11bd6bb7122

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

And you claimed I didn't understand risk?

There are two sources of risk in this potential transaction - and you have only identified one of them.

The first - the risk that the item is altered. Yes, that is a risk no matter the source. You have identified this correctly.

The second - there is risk from the seller themselves. Some sellers are dishonest. Some are not. Can a honest seller make a mistake and do something dishonest? Sure. But your chances of that happening are smaller than the risk you face with dealing with someone who is known for altering merchandise.

So to claim the two are equal risk (including both factors - instead of just your one factor) is factually and logically wrong.

And since the central and original question was - would you buy from PWCC in the future? The first risk is irrelevant in that decision making process as that risk is the same regardless of the seller (as YOU pointed out). Therefore only the second risk matters in answering this question.

So once again you have factually and logically answered the question incorrectly. Which you are free to do - just don't expect people to take what you say seriously if you can't think things through.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And you claimed I didn't understand risk?

There are two sources of risk in this potential transaction - and you have only identified one of them.

The first - the risk that the item is altered. Yes, that is a risk no matter the source. You have identified this correctly.

The second - there is risk from the seller themselves. Some sellers are dishonest. Some are not. Can a honest seller make a mistake and do something dishonest? Sure. But your chances of that happening are smaller than the risk you face with dealing with someone who is known for altering merchandise.

So to claim the two are equal risk (including both factors - instead of just your one factor) is factually and logically wrong.

And since the central and original question was - would you buy from PWCC in the future? The first risk is irrelevant in that decision making process as that risk is the same regardless of the seller (as YOU pointed out). Therefore only the second risk matters in answering this question.

So once again you have factually and logically answered the question incorrectly. Which you are free to do - just don't expect people to take what you say seriously if you can't think things through.

Are you saying he's using this risk theory?: "I'm going to jump in front of that speeding train, because if I stand here out of its way I could theoretically be hit by a car."

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And you claimed I didn't understand risk?

There are two sources of risk in this potential transaction - and you have only identified one of them.

The first - the risk that the item is altered. Yes, that is a risk no matter the source. You have identified this correctly.

The second - there is risk from the seller themselves. Some sellers are dishonest. Some are not. Can a honest seller make a mistake and do something dishonest? Sure. But your chances of that happening are smaller than the risk you face with dealing with someone who is known for altering merchandise.

So to claim the two are equal risk (including both factors - instead of just your one factor) is factually and logically wrong.

And since the central and original question was - would you buy from PWCC in the future? The first risk is irrelevant in that decision making process as that risk is the same regardless of the seller (as YOU pointed out). Therefore only the second risk matters in answering this question.

So once again you have factually and logically answered the question incorrectly. Which you are free to do - just don't expect people to take what you say seriously if you can't think things through.

Haha

If people don't take what I have to say seriously life will go on.

Have you ever purchased a card from PWCC?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

My nose is already plugged, but a 1 of 1 PSA 10 with a recent cert # in a new holder, given what has been revealed in these threads and BO would give me some hesitation about bidding unless I was Al Oliver’s mother.

Maybe it’s been submitted only once, but PSA has had an opportunity to grade this card for over 25 years, and never before

I’m so glad that I’ve had the common sense and not the wherewithal to play the Registry game and I had the opportunity to see cert #00000001 before the McNall/Gretzky purchase.

I’ve never submitted a card to PSA AND i’m proud of it. To each his own.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

No.

I could buy an altered card from anyone.

I look at PWCC as more of a stock exchange at this point. I think that is their ultimate goal.

Please don't confuse me brushing off fraud as part of the game as suggesting it isn't repulsive. It is. I just am saying that you can't just quit buying from the seller that dominates the market because they have sold some questionable cards. I got a great deal on the last $20 purchase I made. I am willing to buy from anyone if I like the cards.

I think people are underestimating how large of a percentage of $0.99 EBAY auctions PWCC represents.

Some? You make it sound like it is a trivial, insignificant amount of cards.
Have you paid any attention at all to the Blowout thread?

Originally Posted by frankbmd

My nose is already plugged, but a 1 of 1 PSA 10 with a recent cert # in a new holder, given what has been revealed in these threads and BO would give me some hesitation about bidding unless I was Al Oliver’s mother.

Maybe it’s been submitted only once, but PSA has had an opportunity to grade this card for over 25 years, and never before

I’m so glad that I’ve had the common sense and not the wherewithal to play the Registry game and I had the opportunity to see cert #00000001 before the McNall/Gretzky purchase.

I’ve never submitted a card to PSA AND i’m proud of it. To each his own.

No kidding, Frank.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by irv

Some? You make it sound like it is a trivial, insignificant amount of cards.
Have you paid any attention at all to the Blowout thread?



No kidding, Frank.

I have been following along for past few months when the dudes on Blowout outed the modern cards first and naturally have been following along on these recent revelations. You may have missed the comment where I was listed as someone who had purchased from one of them.

PWCC is auctioning off over 19,000 cards this month alone. If they even average 15,000 a month that is 180,000 cards in a year. If a few hundred have been identified obviously that isn't good for anyone but in relation to the number of cards they sell it is a fraction.

Lets say that 200 are deemed altered. Obviously a higher number than anyone wants. It is just over one tenth of a percent of the cards sold during a 12 month period. If anyone doesn't think they have this same risk when buying a card from any seller they are dreaming.

The 52 Mantle that kicked this storm off would have been gladly accepted from all auction houses. Goodwin auctions sold a bad 52 Mantle PSA 8 that when the slab was sent to PSA broke open on Joe Orlando's desk.

The fake Mexican slabs were a huge issue for awhile. Anyone could have bought a Jordan at that time that was bad. Fraud exists. It seems like a day doesn't go by where someone is outing an auction of a fake card and they still have bids from people thinking they are getting a steal.

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

Many cards change hands over and over again. Many of the cards they sell will surface in other auctions and ignorance will be bliss.

[mq711]

I think the premise of the poll is to gauge who will no longer/continue to buy from a dealer who sells known altered cards and not who is at fault. Not that it will affect their bottom line, but I won't buy from them again because of their, at best, deceptive behavior. If fraud is an accepted behavior then the dealers who play it clean will have to resort to such tactics to stay in business and then what are we stuck with?

I find it odd that experienced collectors think they were totally in the dark on what they were selling or that they didn't know it was wrong (that excuse didn't even work for George on Seinfeld). My 2cents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A good point. Because most dealers tend not to post, we may overlook that honest dealers -- and there are many -- have also been hurt by the PWCC blitz. The never-ending slew of record-smashing prices -- and I am on record as not trusting many of them -- attracts consignments away from others. And when these record prices are on cards that turned out to be altered, the problem is compounded.

[Republicaninmass]

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A good point. Because most dealers tend not to post, we may overlook that honest dealers -- and there are many -- have also been hurt by the PWCC blitz. The never-ending slew of record-smashing prices -- and I am on record as not trusting many of them -- attracts consignments away from others. And when these record prices are on cards that turned out to be altered, the problem is compounded.

Agreed. And compounded even more when the honest dealers finally throw in the towel because they can’t compete. They figure no hammer came down on PWCC, so if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. They ask Moser to “conserve” cards for them. Moser explains that he has more work than he can handle, but here’s a number of friend who will hook you up. Highly recommended. Almost as good as me. In fact, I trained hm. And round and round we go.