Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

It sounds good to say I won't bid on PWCC cards. It is noble to put ethics above the pursuit of cards. That said I am not boycotting any one seller because the same risk exists everywhere.

No, actually it isn't.

Is there risk everywhere? Yes

Is it the same level of risk at every source? No.

You have one AH that has been proven to deal with altered material at a much higher rate than every other AH. At least to date that is what the evidence shows.

So it ain't noble to stop bidding. It's just prudent.

Now are you right that when folks stop bidding at PWCC, this stuff will just turn up in other AHs? Yes, I think you are. But that isn't the world we live in today. In the world today, there is a different level of risk buying from PWCC than other AHs.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

No, actually it isn't.

Is there risk everywhere? Yes

Is it the same level of risk at every source? No.

You have one AH that has been proven to deal with altered material at a much higher rate than every other AH. At least to date that is what the evidence shows.

So it ain't noble to stop bidding. It's just prudent.

Now are you right that when folks stop bidding at PWCC, this stuff will just turn up in other AHs? Yes, I think you are. But that isn't the world we line in today. In the world today, there is a different level of risk buying from PWCC than other AHs.

So let me get this straight. From what I read you think that the other auction houses would have declined some of these bigger vintage cards.

Is this correct?

I fall on the side that they would have accepted them and so many of these cards can be sold anywhere. They have over 8,000 listings this auction. That is a ton of cards. Many of the cards that have been sold in their auctions turn over again somewhere else.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

So let me get this straight. From what I read you think that the other auction houses would have declined some of these bigger vintage cards.

Is this correct?

I fall on the side that they would have accepted them and so many of these cards can be sold anywhere. They have over 8,000 listings this auction. That is a ton of cards. Many of the cards that have been sold in their auctions turn over again somewhere else.

And your comment is relevant how? Who cares what other AHs MIGHT have done?

You said that risk of fraud exists everywhere.

I agree. It does.

But not at the same level.

In the world we live in today, one (and only one) source has been identified for selling altered material.

Have other sources done it? Sure, I bet they have.

But there is a large body of evidence against one AH, and no significant body of evidence against the others.

To say the risk is the same from both sources is flat out wrong.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And your comment is relevant how? Who cares what other AHs MIGHT have done?

You said that risk of fraud exists everywhere.

I agree. It does.

But not at the same level.

In the world we live in today, one (and only one) source has been identified for selling altered material.

Have other sources done it? Sure, I bet they have.

But there is a large body of evidence against one AH, and no significant body of evidence against the others.

To say the risk is the same from both sources is flat out wrong.

No.

You obviously don't understand how risk works. The same cards can be sold anywhere so the risk is just the same.

So many cards trade on the private market that could have gone to PWCC or were on their way.

At the National this year there will be many cards that were bought through PWCC auctions I would bet.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

No.

You obviously don't understand how risk works. The same cards can be sold anywhere so the risk is just the same.

So many cards trade on the private market that could have gone to PWCC or were on their way.

At the National this year there will be many cards that were bought through PWCC auctions I would bet.

Okay, it seems I need to dumb this down for you.

You're going to spend $10K on merchandise (say a used car instead of a baseball card).

Who do you buy from?

Someone who might be a thief or someone who has been arrested for theft?

If you truly think the risk of being defrauded is the same from both sources - there are a lot of people who want your name and phone number.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Okay, it seems I need to dumb this down for you.

You're going to spend $10K on merchandise (say a used car instead of a baseball card).

Who do you buy from?

Someone who might be a thief or someone who has been arrested for theft?

If you truly think the risk of being defrauded is the same from both sources - there are a lot of people who want your name and phone number.

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

Don't worry, they will preserve another one.

[Gusturd]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

Not a grading expert, but wouldn't the blue shadow around the left half of Oliver's head or the print spot on the end of Hebner's nose prevent it from being a 10?

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

And you claimed I didn't understand risk?

There are two sources of risk in this potential transaction - and you have only identified one of them.

The first - the risk that the item is altered. Yes, that is a risk no matter the source. You have identified this correctly.

The second - there is risk from the seller themselves. Some sellers are dishonest. Some are not. Can a honest seller make a mistake and do something dishonest? Sure. But your chances of that happening are smaller than the risk you face with dealing with someone who is known for altering merchandise.

So to claim the two are equal risk (including both factors - instead of just your one factor) is factually and logically wrong.

And since the central and original question was - would you buy from PWCC in the future? The first risk is irrelevant in that decision making process as that risk is the same regardless of the seller (as YOU pointed out). Therefore only the second risk matters in answering this question.

So once again you have factually and logically answered the question incorrectly. Which you are free to do - just don't expect people to take what you say seriously if you can't think things through.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

My nose is already plugged, but a 1 of 1 PSA 10 with a recent cert # in a new holder, given what has been revealed in these threads and BO would give me some hesitation about bidding unless I was Al Oliver’s mother.

Maybe it’s been submitted only once, but PSA has had an opportunity to grade this card for over 25 years, and never before

I’m so glad that I’ve had the common sense and not the wherewithal to play the Registry game and I had the opportunity to see cert #00000001 before the McNall/Gretzky purchase.

I’ve never submitted a card to PSA AND i’m proud of it. To each his own.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And your comment is relevant how? Who cares what other AHs MIGHT have done?

You said that risk of fraud exists everywhere.

I agree. It does.

But not at the same level.

In the world we live in today, one (and only one) source has been identified for selling altered material.

Have other sources done it? Sure, I bet they have.

But there is a large body of evidence against one AH, and no significant body of evidence against the others.

To say the risk is the same from both sources is flat out wrong.

More assumptions and opinions stated as though they're facts. How do you know the risk isn't the same other places, or even worse? What if these guys on blowout are only reviewing cards from PWCC auctions and no where else? We will most likely never know the exact extent of the alterations, or any specific auction house's involvement.

You can assume and believe whatever you want, just as we all can. And it may turn out that more of the cards sold on PWCC were altered than those sold other places. But to say that's been proven at this point is flat out wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

More assumptions and opinions stated as though they're facts. How do you know the risk isn't the same other places, or even worse? What if these guys on blowout are only reviewing cards from PWCC auctions and no where else? We will most likely never know the exact extent of the alterations, or any specific auction house's involvement.

You can assume and believe whatever you want, just as well all can. And it may turn out that more of the cards sold on PWCC were altered than those sold other places. But to say that's been proven at this point is flat out wrong.

That's where the initial focus has been (at least on the vintage side) because the whitman111/PWCC relationship left an easy paper trail to follow. Yes the results are horrifying, but it doesn't mean there aren't other equally bad venues that are going to be much more difficult to trace without cert numbers from the TPGs. The reality is that lots of card doctors have altered shitloads of cards for decades and have placed them in many many venues. That does not, in any way, minimize what PWCC has done here. And I am glad to see them come into focus for what they are, believe me.