Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

OMG... never noticed that, Rob...

Yes, he should be holding that bat differently. Definitely an “R” rated pose.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

OMG... never noticed that, Rob...

Yes, he should be holding that bat differently. Definitely an “R” rated pose.

Speaking of which ... I always thought this one could have been done a tiny bit better

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Anyone know how the Keexer pennants were sold? Any Keezer advertisements out there?

We need our resident historian to chime in. Kyle?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Speaking of which ... I always thought this one could have been done a tiny bit better

Great post Greg! I've always cracked up at that one too...

Good thing the male bear's left leg isn't obscured behind the female's rear end. The artist was walking a very "fine line".

[Joe Hunter]

Picked up this rather unusual early St Louis Browns 9” mini pennant at an estate sale, today. What I found unusual was the grommets at the base of the pennant and the extra long tassels(one of which is missing.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

We need our resident historian to chime in. Kyle?

Oh, don't you worry, I got some answers for you guys on Keezer; including a vintage ad that should answer some of these questions. Be patient. It'll all be on Pennant Fever soon enough....

Been too busy making pennants for my other site!

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Speaking of which ... I always thought this one could have been done a tiny bit better

Ha! What’s the big deal...just bears being bears.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

Picked up this rather unusual early St Louis Browns 9” mini pennant at an estate sale, today. What I found unusual was the grommets at the base of the pennant and the extra long tassels(one of which is missing.

Very cool Browns Mini Pennant. When you see abnormally long tassels like that, you can pretty safely assume it was originally sold tied to a mini Bat (as a combination souvenir).

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

Picked up this rather unusual early St Louis Browns 9” mini pennant at an estate sale, today. What I found unusual was the grommets at the base of the pennant and the extra long tassels(one of which is missing.

Kyle, while you are at it please explain these grommeted pennants. Big mystery! In full size, we see this in the late 30s/early 40s St. Louis pennants, both Browns and Cards. But there are also versions that explicitly date back as far as 1919.

The design is very distinct ... perhaps the most distinct of any brand. Some were made without grommets but what they all have in common is no sewn on strip along the wide end. Would love to know some history with these

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Kyle, while you are at it please explain these grommeted pennants. Big mystery! In full size, we see this in the late 30s/early 40s St. Louis pennants, both Browns and Cards. But there are also versions that explicitly date back as far as 1919.

The design is very distinct ... perhaps the most distinct of any brand. Some were made without grommets but what they all have in common is no sewn on strip along the wide end. Would love to know some history with these

I find this design intriguing, too. So, there's two mysteries here. First, the maker. Seems like a case could be made for these being made by a local St. Louis manufacturer, since they mostly appear on Cards and Browns pennants--not Cubs or Tigers or others in that region of the country. But I can only think of one label for a St. Louis-based pennant maker I've ever encountered, and their name escapes me for the moment.

Next I looked through a bunch of vintage trade catalogues I have listing manufacturers of pennants and their locations. And I found one possible candidate identified as a maker of pennants: The St. Louis Button Co.

Preliminary research dates this company's reign to the period 1893-1948. So, that makes them contenders for really any of these grommetted pennants we've been discussing. As the name suggests, they specialized in pinbacks; but, they also made other novelty products. I can't confirm they ever made a felt pennant, but my experience tells me: they surely did. (Why else would a button company be listed in a ca. 1920 trade catalogue as a pennant maker, right?)

So I did some more sleuthing and found this listing for a mini pennant and pinback combo for the St. Louis Browns. The pinback features--I'm proud to have learned from Greg months ago--the Saint Louis IX of Franco logo! See: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...all-1964550666

Unlike the pennant, the pinback clearly identifies St. Louis Button Co. as its maker. Maybe this St. Louis of France logo was theirs? Perhaps the pennant was made by them, too. This pennant doesn't feature the same logo or grommets ... or even a painted spine; but, it is spineless, like others we think this company made were.

Unfortunately, all these grommetted pennants lacked any sewn label, right?

That brings me to the second mystery: why use grommets? That's a much easier question. Answer: costs. The most time consuming part of making a pennant is the sewing. If you can eliminate this from your manufacturing process, say by painting your graphics on, then you can make more pennants at a time using cheaper labor. This maker believed that decorative spines weren't essential. You could paint them on if the customer really insisted on that look. As to the grommets, without a spine, the consumer had to tack directly through the backfelt--and because it was no longer reinforced with a felt spine, it could tear. The metal grommet prevented this. Additionally, when punched through the backfelt, they could secure tassels. So, the grommets were a cost effective way of making a decent pennant without having to use a seamstress or sewing machine.

Which explains why this company omitted any sewn label, right?

Here's a page from Annin's ca. 1908 catalogue dedicated just to grommets. In the middle, you can see them offering "SETTING DYES FOR GROMMETS". Pictured therewith on the right side of the page is the device our pennant maker likely would have used to punch these grommets into the felt during the manufacturing process. (Sorry, I hate N54's photo attachment process ... no clue how to make this any bigger.)

By the way, Annin also made pennants and banners for many, many years. But they did use sewn labels (e.g., "A & Co. N.Y."). So I think we can rule them out.

Finally, here's a Notre Dame pennant that was likely made by this same manufacturer, ca. 1920s, I'd guess.

[ooo-ribay]

As always, Kyle, amazing “sleuthing.” I sincerely appreciate your efforts.....although I suspect you get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. I think we all enjoy solving our little mysteries.

As for the photo attachment....I think Net54 is one of the EASIEST sites when it comes to photos. For whatever reason, I am never plagued by the small and/or sideways pictures others experience. Are you on a real computer or your phone? I’ve had no problems with either, but 90% of the time I am using my desktop computer. Anything from 50 kb to <2 mb usually uploads to the same ~80 kb size. Plus, I like the “preview post” button to get a, duh, preview.

[thetahat]

Kyle ... AWESOME stuff. Thank you.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

As always, Kyle, amazing “sleuthing.” I sincerely appreciate your efforts.....although I suspect you get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. I think we all enjoy solving our little mysteries.

As for the photo attachment....I think Net54 is one of the EASIEST sites when it comes to photos. For whatever reason, I am never plagued by the small and/or sideways pictures others experience. Are you on a real computer or your phone? I’ve had no problems with either, but 90% of the time I am using my desktop computer. Anything from 50 kb to <2 mb usually uploads to the same ~80 kb size. Plus, I like the “preview post” button to get a, duh, preview.

I sincerely appreciate anyone that cares about these little mysteries. I'm glad you two enjoy my answers.

Sooooooo, did we solve anything here? Anyone feel good about St. Louis Button Co.? Prior to last night, I knew nothing of them ... wasn't even sure they were in St. Louis, MO. Now, it's looking like a pretty good answer, to me anyway. I certainly can't come up with a better one; but, I'm certainly no Browns or Cards expert; and pinbacks are not my thing.

In my experience, many makers of pinbacks made other novelty items, including felt pennants. These were considered "complementary goods" and usually sold side by side. ASCO, WGN, and WinCraft all made both products for a period of time. So, it's completely logical to assume St. Louis Button Co. did, too. However, without a maker's mark from them on a felt pennant; or a vintage catalogue or advertisement referencing their felt pennants, we can only speculate.

Here's some more info on 20th century button manufacturers, including St. Louis Button Co., if you scroll down a bit:

https://www.buttonmuseum.org/button-manufacturers

There's a cool product catalogue displayed in the above piece from the company. I'm sure if they made pennants when it was printed, it would indicate so along with all the other novelty items they made....

As to my picture attachment woes ... I give up. I spend more time trying to attach a clear, legible image on my N54 posts than in research and writing. I think the files are too big, and it's either shrinking them or else not letting me attach them.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I sincerely appreciate anyone that cares about these little mysteries. I'm glad you two enjoy my answers.

As to my picture attachment woes ... I give up. I spend more time trying to attach a clear, legible image on my N54 posts than in research and writing. I think the files are too big, and it's either shrinking them or else not letting me attach them.

Definitely appreciate the info Kyle. There was such little info available on pennants just a few years ago, but we're slowly chipping away at the mystery.

As for pics...I use imgbox.com and picresize.com and don't have any problems. It's sometimes a couple extra steps to get it right but nothing too labor intensive.

Edit to add: They're both free.

[Fballguy]

Thought Marc (Bocca) might be interested in this recent pick up. Has to be one of the earliest Niners pennants...definitely one of the rarest.

[perezfan]

Great pennant Rob! 3/4 size... right? Extremely rare...

Were the goalposts ever really like that? You see that depiction A LOT in period artwork, program covers, and even on many of the early '50s Bowman Cards. It's very consistent, but I'm guessing they took some "artistic license" in portraying them.

Hard to imagine why the crossbar would ever be placed that high up. Must've been lots tougher to tell if the kick was good or bad back then. I bet they blew quite a few calls.

OK, enough musing.... Back to pennants!

[Fballguy]

In the 1940s (this pennant is from 1946 or so) they didn't look like that. Here's a screenshot from a Rams/Eagles game in 1945. Relatively modern looking.



In the 1920s though they do kind of resemble the ones in the pennant.

[perezfan]

Thanks Rob-

Great photos! I guess it was in the early 1960s that they adapted to the taller and narrower goalposts. But I love that antiquated style!

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Thought Marc (Bocca) might be interested in this recent pick up. Has to be one of the earliest Niners pennants...definitely one of the rarest.

Rob- That is really, really nice. Did you pick that up from the 49er super collector with the massive pennant collection? Or did it come from elsewhere? I want to be hopeful about others existing.

And, Kyle, I also really appreciate your research. I like being able to find it on your blog, but I’d also be glad to find it all in a book some day.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Rob- That is really, really nice. Did you pick that up from the 49er super collector with the massive pennant collection? Or did it come from elsewhere? I want to be hopeful about others existing.

And, Kyle, I also really appreciate your research. I like being able to find it on your blog, but I’d also be glad to find it all in a book some day.

Thanks Marc...No it didn't come from him. It was in the recent Hunt auction along with a decent (but common) 60s Giants pennant, a moderately rare but faded as hell Yankees pennant and a bunch of other beat to sh*t 60's baseball and basketball pennants. The Niners was the outlier of the bunch. Not sure why Hunt bundled these.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Please come check out the pennants in my auction!









and a bunch more. Not earth-shattering stuff but some nice items. 1969 Expos, tons of 70's NBA, MLB, NFL and College.

http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com

[Fballguy]

Anyone have the slightest clue who these guys were? Google provides nothing helpful.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Possibly something to do with Robert Matina? He is a sports director for CBS and he directs NFL Today.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Possibly something to do with Robert Matina? He is a sports director for CBS and he directs NFL Today.

Makes sense. Probably made for some function or as a joke.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Possibly something to do with Robert Matina? He is a sports director for CBS and he directs NFL Today.

Excellent! Now it's starting to make sense. Probably made for his crew or a team function. Maybe their intramural team. Thanks for the info.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Excellent! Now it's starting to make sense. Probably made for his crew or a team function. Maybe their intramural team. Thanks for the info.

No sweat now go bid on my auctions!!!

[Fballguy]

Not in the best condition, but too rare to pass up.

[bocca001]

I think I need to hire Fballguy as a personal shopper.

I've never seen that Astros pennant before. Nice!

[bocca001]

That same batter from the Astros pennant also played on the Giants (see attached), and is also more difficult to find than the more common batter that appears on Giants, Astros, and other team pennants. I'm not sure if this is the only Giants pennant with this batter. Ooo-ribay may have others.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

That same batter from the Astros pennant also played on the Giants (see attached), and is also more difficult to find than the more common batter that appears on Giants, Astros, and other team pennants. I'm not sure if this is the only Giants pennant with this batter. Ooo-ribay may have others.

It comes in other colors, but that's the only design I know of with the horizontal bat.

[bocca001]

I have two copies of the pennant and both have relatively short tassels. It looks like the Astros pennant has short tassles as well. I had wondered if the bright pink hat on the Giants pennant suggested that it might be WGN (as discussed in Kyle's blog), but I'm not sure. It doesn't seem like an exact match.

[ooo-ribay]

This upright bat is the only one in my collection with the little "speed marks."

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I have two copies of the pennant and both have relatively short tassels. It looks like the Astros pennant has short tassles as well. I had wondered if the bright pink hat on the Giants pennant suggested that it might be WGN (as discussed in Kyle's blog), but I'm not sure. It doesn't seem like an exact match.

My opinion: These are ALL Trench-made pennants. By 1965, when that Astros pennant was made, WGN had ceased using any tassels on their pennants. And although WGN was definitely into that Day-Glo color palette by the mid-1960s, when they used it, they seemed to have used it throughout the totality of the artwork, using no less than three fluorescent colors. Here that pink is merely being used to add a little pop to the artwork.

Everything else seems pretty consistent with Trench's M.O., even the lettering.

I've never seen this horizontal batter before, however. Nor the variant with the speed lines.

[thetahat]

Picked up an alternate version of the 1951 Cubs “anniversary pennant” (thanks for tip MRKRAB) ... these are part of my favorite series/style, and I’ve written before about them. Now it has me wondering ... why? Only two dated pennants from this series are both Cubs. On top of that, I’ve seen a White Sox version with Minnie Minoso ... actually I bought it then returned it on account of condition issues. Could this be the Chicago Pennant Company?

These seem to date to 51-52, because of Dodgers NL Champs pennant, and no Orioles or KC A’s version ... BUT I have seen a ‘57 Milwaukee Braves pennant with the same graphic as the Boston Braves. Maybe just a knock-off.

[vwtdi]

Picked this one up at a yard sale the other day for $5, anyone want to guess at a year?

[perezfan]

Early 1950s.... Nice buy!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Early 1950s.... Nice buy!

Philadelphia?

[perezfan]

Yes- definitely Phillly

[vwtdi]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yes- definitely Phillly

Thanks Mark, all.

[jimm]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Awesome sir

[bocca001]

This one just arrived today, from Scott's auction.

It's like a projective test for Giants fans. Is the batter descending into the Candlestick turf or ascending?

I'm guessing that this was probably the last apperance of the classic left handed pennant batter on a Giants pennant, early to mid 70s given the closed in Candlestick. So I'm going with descending.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

This one just arrived today, from Scott's auction.

It's like a projective test for Giants fans. Is the batter descending into the Candlestick turf or ascending?

I'm guessing that this was probably the last apperance of the classic left handed pennant batter on a Giants pennant, early to mid 70s given the closed in Candlestick. So I'm going with descending.

Looks more like Busch Stadium than any version of Candlestick--open or closed.

[bocca001]

That's funny. I admit that I didn't look at the stadium very closely. It really doesn't look like Candlestick (among other things, the tall light polls are missing and the overall shape is wrong).

I know that this pennant isn't common. I wonder if this is part of a series and whether any other teams ended up with the Busch-like stadium.

[ooo-ribay]

I have a moth eaten version in reversed colors. And I just noticed it's probably trimmed, too.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Speaking of which ... I always thought this one could have been done a tiny bit better

Yours is downright kid friendly...



Compared to this adults only version...

[SAllen2556]

Slightly used...but it's the rare Virgil Trucks version!

s-l1600-30.jpg

[thetahat]

So I’ve been collecting pennants for 20 years - vintage ones, that is. In my early days I owned this 1967 Pirates pennant, but one day I sold a bunch of pennants at a Show in Philly and this was among them. Always regretted it, and in the back of my mind wanted to secure another one of these at any reasonable cost. 15 years or so since ... never saw another, until a week ago. In fact I am not unconvinced this is the exact same pennant that worked it’s way back to me, I seem to recall similar flaws. (I wouldn’t bet on it though.) Seller described it as poor condition but it’s not bad at all, in fact there’s no fading nor missing paint, badly needed some ironing, some original defects in threading but in this case the fair/decent condition takes a backseat to its awesomeness. It is now my favorite pennant!

[bocca001]

That's a really cool Pirates pennant. It has a lot going for it. Love the colorful ship.

I wonder why it is so rare? Did the pirates have scroll pennants every year? I usually think of the scroll pennants as being for playoff teams.

[perezfan]

I don’t know why it’s so rare either. But I do love it. I’ve seen only two others in 30 years of collecting this stuff.

Saw it recently on eBay, but something intangible in my head told me not to bid. Now I know why...

It belongs in Greg’s collection. Im so glad it found the perfect home, and many congrats, Greg!

[Fballguy]

Beautiful Pirates pennant! Congrats!