Hey, pennant guys

[Joe Hunter]

Picked up this rather unusual early St Louis Browns 9” mini pennant at an estate sale, today. What I found unusual was the grommets at the base of the pennant and the extra long tassels(one of which is missing.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

Picked up this rather unusual early St Louis Browns 9” mini pennant at an estate sale, today. What I found unusual was the grommets at the base of the pennant and the extra long tassels(one of which is missing.

Very cool Browns Mini Pennant. When you see abnormally long tassels like that, you can pretty safely assume it was originally sold tied to a mini Bat (as a combination souvenir).

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

Picked up this rather unusual early St Louis Browns 9” mini pennant at an estate sale, today. What I found unusual was the grommets at the base of the pennant and the extra long tassels(one of which is missing.

Kyle, while you are at it please explain these grommeted pennants. Big mystery! In full size, we see this in the late 30s/early 40s St. Louis pennants, both Browns and Cards. But there are also versions that explicitly date back as far as 1919.

The design is very distinct ... perhaps the most distinct of any brand. Some were made without grommets but what they all have in common is no sewn on strip along the wide end. Would love to know some history with these

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Kyle, while you are at it please explain these grommeted pennants. Big mystery! In full size, we see this in the late 30s/early 40s St. Louis pennants, both Browns and Cards. But there are also versions that explicitly date back as far as 1919.

The design is very distinct ... perhaps the most distinct of any brand. Some were made without grommets but what they all have in common is no sewn on strip along the wide end. Would love to know some history with these

I find this design intriguing, too. So, there's two mysteries here. First, the maker. Seems like a case could be made for these being made by a local St. Louis manufacturer, since they mostly appear on Cards and Browns pennants--not Cubs or Tigers or others in that region of the country. But I can only think of one label for a St. Louis-based pennant maker I've ever encountered, and their name escapes me for the moment.

Next I looked through a bunch of vintage trade catalogues I have listing manufacturers of pennants and their locations. And I found one possible candidate identified as a maker of pennants: The St. Louis Button Co.

Preliminary research dates this company's reign to the period 1893-1948. So, that makes them contenders for really any of these grommetted pennants we've been discussing. As the name suggests, they specialized in pinbacks; but, they also made other novelty products. I can't confirm they ever made a felt pennant, but my experience tells me: they surely did. (Why else would a button company be listed in a ca. 1920 trade catalogue as a pennant maker, right?)

So I did some more sleuthing and found this listing for a mini pennant and pinback combo for the St. Louis Browns. The pinback features--I'm proud to have learned from Greg months ago--the Saint Louis IX of Franco logo! See: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...all-1964550666

Unlike the pennant, the pinback clearly identifies St. Louis Button Co. as its maker. Maybe this St. Louis of France logo was theirs? Perhaps the pennant was made by them, too. This pennant doesn't feature the same logo or grommets ... or even a painted spine; but, it is spineless, like others we think this company made were.

Unfortunately, all these grommetted pennants lacked any sewn label, right?

That brings me to the second mystery: why use grommets? That's a much easier question. Answer: costs. The most time consuming part of making a pennant is the sewing. If you can eliminate this from your manufacturing process, say by painting your graphics on, then you can make more pennants at a time using cheaper labor. This maker believed that decorative spines weren't essential. You could paint them on if the customer really insisted on that look. As to the grommets, without a spine, the consumer had to tack directly through the backfelt--and because it was no longer reinforced with a felt spine, it could tear. The metal grommet prevented this. Additionally, when punched through the backfelt, they could secure tassels. So, the grommets were a cost effective way of making a decent pennant without having to use a seamstress or sewing machine.

Which explains why this company omitted any sewn label, right?

Here's a page from Annin's ca. 1908 catalogue dedicated just to grommets. In the middle, you can see them offering "SETTING DYES FOR GROMMETS". Pictured therewith on the right side of the page is the device our pennant maker likely would have used to punch these grommets into the felt during the manufacturing process. (Sorry, I hate N54's photo attachment process ... no clue how to make this any bigger.)

By the way, Annin also made pennants and banners for many, many years. But they did use sewn labels (e.g., "A & Co. N.Y."). So I think we can rule them out.

Finally, here's a Notre Dame pennant that was likely made by this same manufacturer, ca. 1920s, I'd guess.

[ooo-ribay]

As always, Kyle, amazing “sleuthing.” I sincerely appreciate your efforts.....although I suspect you get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. I think we all enjoy solving our little mysteries.

As for the photo attachment....I think Net54 is one of the EASIEST sites when it comes to photos. For whatever reason, I am never plagued by the small and/or sideways pictures others experience. Are you on a real computer or your phone? I’ve had no problems with either, but 90% of the time I am using my desktop computer. Anything from 50 kb to <2 mb usually uploads to the same ~80 kb size. Plus, I like the “preview post” button to get a, duh, preview.

[thetahat]

Kyle ... AWESOME stuff. Thank you.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

As always, Kyle, amazing “sleuthing.” I sincerely appreciate your efforts.....although I suspect you get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. I think we all enjoy solving our little mysteries.

As for the photo attachment....I think Net54 is one of the EASIEST sites when it comes to photos. For whatever reason, I am never plagued by the small and/or sideways pictures others experience. Are you on a real computer or your phone? I’ve had no problems with either, but 90% of the time I am using my desktop computer. Anything from 50 kb to <2 mb usually uploads to the same ~80 kb size. Plus, I like the “preview post” button to get a, duh, preview.

I sincerely appreciate anyone that cares about these little mysteries. I'm glad you two enjoy my answers.

Sooooooo, did we solve anything here? Anyone feel good about St. Louis Button Co.? Prior to last night, I knew nothing of them ... wasn't even sure they were in St. Louis, MO. Now, it's looking like a pretty good answer, to me anyway. I certainly can't come up with a better one; but, I'm certainly no Browns or Cards expert; and pinbacks are not my thing.

In my experience, many makers of pinbacks made other novelty items, including felt pennants. These were considered "complementary goods" and usually sold side by side. ASCO, WGN, and WinCraft all made both products for a period of time. So, it's completely logical to assume St. Louis Button Co. did, too. However, without a maker's mark from them on a felt pennant; or a vintage catalogue or advertisement referencing their felt pennants, we can only speculate.

Here's some more info on 20th century button manufacturers, including St. Louis Button Co., if you scroll down a bit:

https://www.buttonmuseum.org/button-manufacturers

There's a cool product catalogue displayed in the above piece from the company. I'm sure if they made pennants when it was printed, it would indicate so along with all the other novelty items they made....

As to my picture attachment woes ... I give up. I spend more time trying to attach a clear, legible image on my N54 posts than in research and writing. I think the files are too big, and it's either shrinking them or else not letting me attach them.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I sincerely appreciate anyone that cares about these little mysteries. I'm glad you two enjoy my answers.

As to my picture attachment woes ... I give up. I spend more time trying to attach a clear, legible image on my N54 posts than in research and writing. I think the files are too big, and it's either shrinking them or else not letting me attach them.

Definitely appreciate the info Kyle. There was such little info available on pennants just a few years ago, but we're slowly chipping away at the mystery.

As for pics...I use imgbox.com and picresize.com and don't have any problems. It's sometimes a couple extra steps to get it right but nothing too labor intensive.

Edit to add: They're both free.

[Fballguy]

Thought Marc (Bocca) might be interested in this recent pick up. Has to be one of the earliest Niners pennants...definitely one of the rarest.