Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Um, I wasn't referring to the peanut gallery. More like the people in the soup.

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

It started around the Copeland auction, right? Wasn't that auction full of trimmed cards besides the Wagner?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It started around the Copeland auction, right? Wasn't that auction full of trimmed cards besides the Wagner?

No, it started the moment we started paying people for their opinions and then treating those opinions as gospel.

Actually, the opinions were never completely treated as gospel, because most of the card "deserved a better opinion" according to their sellers.

So even though nobody ever seemed to get an opinion as good as they deserved (by definition a bad opinion), they still continued paying for them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

No, it started the moment we started paying people for their opinions and then treating those opinions as gospel.

Yes but you said let's get the hobby back where it was. I think where it was, was riddled with trimmed cards.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but you said let's get the hobby back where it was. I think where it was, was riddled with trimmed cards.

Not sure which response is best :

1 - Which we didn't buy because we were buying the card instead of the opinion...

2 - oh, you mean like today (based on this thread)?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Not sure which response is best :

1 - Which we didn't buy because we were buying the card instead of the opinion...

2 - oh, you mean like today (based on this thread)?

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

Depends on what part of pre grading you are referring to. The prices was a lot better back then. If you are buying trimmed cards anyway why not spend less.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

At the end of the day, there have always been, and always will be, assholes who will lie about what they are selling, and will game whatever system is in place for their benefit.

Since the phrase "buyer beware" comes from the Latin "caveat emptor" I will assume that means there were assholes when Latin was a more popular language... (ergo, a long time ago).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

Sure trimmed cards were running rampant pre-grading, but if you took the time to educate yourself - learn the difference between a factory cut and a non-factory cut - you probably wouldn't fall victim. PSA came along and what did they bring to the table? Nothing. Did they have some special lenses or some kind of special software that detects trimmed cards? No. They simply use their eyes (and maybe magnification, but any collector had access to that). The bottom line is that collectors were too damn lazy to educate themselves on what to look for. So, it's not that the hobby was so bad pre-grading (it sure is a lot worse now), it's collectors were too lazy. The funny thing is that what grading hoped to accomplish - catching altered cards so that buyers don't get burned - isn't being done. Is the hobby really better off with grading? Did grading really solve the doctored card problem? Or, and really think about this, did it make it worse with all the greed over high dollar cards?

I'm like Doug. I, too, find this whole situation very funny. This situation doesn't effect me or my collection one bit. I'm a mid-grade raw collector. In fact, I think it helps the value of my cards. Maybe people will wake up and realize they don't have to have that card in high grade mint condition with a pretty label and hologram sitting inside a slab? Maybe they'll wake up and realize that a nice well centered Ex to Ex/Mt card could bring them as much joy as the same card in a PSA 8, 9, or 10 holder? Maybe raw, mid grade cards will make a comeback as people really do start buying the card and not the holder instead of just preaching it? To all the people with high grade cards sitting in slabs, I do feel bad for you, but I'm also laughing at the same time. You went to bed last night wondering if you have any altered cards in your collection. You woke up this morning wondering the same thing and you're still wondering that as you read these threads. I don't have to wonder those things.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

Doug, solid post, but the scenario you suggest is farcical. The hobby is not going back to the good old days of having raw cards that may or may not have been altered anyway.

I agree that all cards in TPG holders are now more suspect than they were before. But come on - cracking all cards of my TPG cards out of their cases is going to do exactly what? There won't be much value in this purification ritual and it won't make them any more or less pure.

If the cards we have purchased with 3rd party opinions are trimmed/altered/conserved whatever you want to call it, then how will breaking them out of their holders fix anything? Will it somehow purify the cards? Are raw cards more pure and thus less prone to trimming, recoloring, or as PWCC calls some practices - conservation? While I am discouraged and feel that this fiasco cannot help but result in the diminution of the value of everyone's graded collections, I don't for a minute think that my cards would be worth more cracked out than not. I would bet that even though there will be a cloud over the TPG's opinions, a slabbed card will continue to carry a premium over a raw card because it has a better chance of being the grade shown than a raw card that looks like it might be.

Someday, either a new grading company or an existing grading company will come out with a process to remove the humans from the grading process and use optical scanning and CMM tools to measure card size. They might provide this service as an upgraded service alongside human opinions which will be viewed as less reliable but perhaps ok for lower priced, lower grade commons as an authentication option.

When that day comes, there will be a new class of graded cards whose value will exceed those of the human-graded slabbed cards of today's TPG's. I would expect that PSA will actually do this themselves to clean up their image but more importantly, open up a re-grading market for themselves. It will be like the after-market parts business is for cars. It will be more lucrative than the first wave of grading and it will cost them less.

In the process they will create another pool of over 3M cards that will be the target of their next money making endeavor - regrading their previously PSA human-graded cards, but with their new technology.

This will be the only reason that I can think of (other than to alter and resubmit or play the PSA lottery game of hoping for a bump up for a re-grade) that would result mass waves of people cracking out their cards from their holders.

Until that day, I will continue to use my kitchen knives to butter my biscuits.

Tony

[Beastmode]

Someday, either a new grading company or an existing grading company will come out with a process to remove the humans from the grading process and use optical scanning and CMM tools to measure card size. They might provide this service as an upgraded service alongside human opinions which will be viewed as less reliable but perhaps ok for lower priced, lower grade commons as an authentication option.

When that day comes, there will be a new class of graded cards whose value will exceed those of the human-graded slabbed cards of today's TPG's. I would expect that PSA will actually do this themselves to clean up their image but more importantly, open up a re-grading market for themselves. It will be like the after-market parts business is for cars. It will be more lucrative than the first wave of grading and it will cost them less.

In the process they will create another pool of over 3M cards that will be the target of their next money making endeavor - regrading their previously PSA human-graded cards, but with their new technology.

This will be the only reason that I can think of (other than to alter and resubmit or play the PSA lottery game of hoping for a bump up for a re-grade) that would result mass waves of people cracking out their cards from their holders.

Until that day, I will continue to use my kitchen knives to butter my biscuits.

Tony[/QUOTE]


And there you have it. We should just end this thread right here. We've come full circle to the ultimate motive of this entire debacle. A new high end grading service from PSA that will detect any form of alteration, conservation, trimming, etc., of any card, either raw or slabbed. Using state of the art technology and forensics, you can own a card that is as original as they day it was born.

[benjulmag]

It makes sense that if the technology exists to in a cost-effective way provide a significantly more reliable method of "grading" cards that it is just a matter of time before such a service is introduced to the market place.

Whether PSA would be the one to do it, that is another question. If it is PSA, that would be some spectacle -- PSA offering a new service that would put into plain view all the trimmed/altered cards that were missed by its old service. Just curious -- would a submitter be willing to pay a company for a service that shows that the company misgraded the card initially? In my view the reason many of the cards were misgraded initially was not because the old grading methods could not reasonably spot the alterations. They were initially misgraded because of sheer incompetence. So why then should someone have to pay the company to get it right the second time? And even if PSA would not demand the submitter pay if the re-grade established the initial grade was wrong, what about their warranty that accompanied the initial grade? I would think the first thing the submitter would do is demand PSA buy back the card. Then we would be getting into the whole mess of whether PSA would be required to make good on its warranty and the legal issues that could follow. In fact, the more I think about it, given this contingent liability, I question whether PSA would have any incentive to offer a more-technologically advanced grading service.

I continue to marvel at the spectacle of people caring little what was done to the card as long as the flip says what they want it to say. I'm trying to think of another "commodity" where the price is based not on what the commodity is but on what false branding says it is. An analogy would be the price of, say, gold being independent of whether the product being sold is real gold or gold-plated bronze. Maybe I am being naïve but I just can't believe the day will not come when such a superior grading service has become common-place and the market will demand that for a card to hold its value it will need to be re-graded by this new technology. Should that happen, I sure would not want to be an investor holding a long position in high-grade PSA vintage cards graded under the old method.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It makes sense that if the technology exists to in a cost-effective way provide a significantly more reliable method of "grading" cards that it is just a matter of time before such a service is introduced to the market place.

Whether PSA would be the one to do it, that is another question. If it is PSA, that would be some spectacle -- PSA offering a new service that would put into plain view all the trimmed/altered cards that were missed by its old service. Just curious -- would a submitter be willing to pay a company for a service that shows that the company misgraded the card initially? In my view the reason many of the cards were misgraded initially was not because the old grading methods could not reasonably spot the alterations. They were initially misgraded because of sheer incompetence. So why then should someone have to pay the company to get it right the second time? And even if PSA would not demand the submitter pay if the re-grade established the initial grade was wrong, what about their warranty that accompanied the initial grade? I would think the first thing the submitter would do is demand PSA buy back the card. Then we would be getting into the whole mess of whether PSA would be required to make good on its warranty and the legal issues that could follow. In fact, the more I think about it, given this contingent liability, I question whether PSA would have any incentive to offer a more-technologically advanced grading service? .

Collectors Universe can simply start or invest in a competing company with better technology that is separate and avoid the need to refund original people duped by owning cards incorrectly graded by PSA. A great way to hedge their bets. Premiums for PSA opinions should fall no doubt.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Collectors Universe can simply start or invest in a competing company with better technology that is separate and avoid the need to refund original people duped by owning cards incorrectly graded by PSA. A great way to hedge their bets. Premiums for PSA opinions should fall no doubt.

Your point about hedging bets is a good one. The flip side is that the new company presumably would be an affiliate of PSA, and usually it is not the case a company creates an affiliate that would end up hurting in a big way one of its other companies. That said, I suppose if Collectors Universe sees the writing on the wall that the introduction of such a new high-tech grading company is inevitable to the market, they might as well be the ones to reap the benefits.

That would create some interesting advertising fodder for anybody starting such a new company and having to compete with Collectors Universe's version. I can only imagine the slogans that one could come up with asking potential submitters why on earth they would want to give their business to a company run by the same people who created the mess in the first place.

[Johnny630]

Would anyone be surprised if search warrants are to come......

[griffon512]

"Someday, either a new grading company or an existing grading company will come out with a process to remove the humans from the grading process and use optical scanning and CMM tools to measure card size. They might provide this service as an upgraded service alongside human opinions which will be viewed as less reliable but perhaps ok for lower priced, lower grade commons as an authentication option."

Size among vintage cards should not be the sole determinant of whether a card is trimmed. There are many oversized vintage cards that are trimmed and many undersized vintage cards that are not trimmed versus a given set's standard size. Obviously an undersized card is more likely to be trimmed than a non-undersized card. The fact that all the statements above are true means that technology alone can not determine whether size was reduced post-production. That means that the likelihood a grading company will introduce a grading technology that will change many numerical grades to authentic based on size -- and presumably guarantee the loss in value of the card -- is extremely low. Common sense and anecdotal evidence reinforces that a large percentage of high grade pre-WWII cards are altered. That should not be a surprise to any knowledgeable person in the hobby. There will always be a cloud of uncertainty over the hobby, as is the case with most collectibles. It's up to each person how much they want to rely on faith versus certainty in what they buy. Until now -- and I don't see this changing much -- faith has trumped certainty.

[ullmandds]

I was thinking about this the other day...what I think should be done is a catalogue/resourse of every type of card ever made should be created using cards most likely known to be in their original state. Cards from the burdick collection for example can be used. High res macro photos/scans of all aspects of the card...especially the appearance of the edges...cut, color, patina from aging.

Then this resource should be used as the definitive for grading/evaluating cards as to whether they were trimmed.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by griffon512

"Someday, either a new grading company or an existing grading company will come out with a process to remove the humans from the grading process and use optical scanning and CMM tools to measure card size. They might provide this service as an upgraded service alongside human opinions which will be viewed as less reliable but perhaps ok for lower priced, lower grade commons as an authentication option."

Size among vintage cards should not be the sole determinant of whether a card is trimmed. There are many oversized vintage cards that are trimmed and many undersized vintage cards that are not trimmed versus a given set's standard size. Obviously an undersized card is more likely to be trimmed than a non-undersized card. The fact that all the statements above are true means that technology alone can not determine whether size was reduced post-production. That means that the likelihood a grading company will introduce a grading technology that will change many numerical grades to authentic based on size -- and presumably guarantee the loss in value of the card -- is extremely low. Common sense and anecdotal evidence reinforces that a large percentage of high grade pre-WWII cards are altered. That should not be a surprise to any knowledgeable person in the hobby. There will always be a cloud of uncertainty over the hobby, as is the case with most collectibles. It's up to each person how much they want to rely on faith versus certainty in what they buy. Until now -- and I don't see this changing much -- faith has trumped certainty.

+1

And it's my opinion that the trimmed cards are being stretched prior to trimming, so they're being trimmed down to what the card should actually measure. A computer or machine will never be able to distinguish the difference between a card that's been trimmed and one that hasn't based on the size of the card alone. It goes back to what I was saying just a couple posts above. People want to rely on someone or something else to do it for them because they're too damn laze to educate themselves. Sad really.

[LOUCARDFAN]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

+1

And it's my opinion that the trimmed cards are being stretched prior to trimming, so they're being trimmed down to what the card should actually measure. A computer or machine will never be able to distinguish the difference between a card that's been trimmed and one that hasn't based on the size of the card alone. It goes back to what I was saying just a couple posts above. People want to rely on someone or something else to do it for them because they're too damn laze to educate themselves. Sad really.

Yes, lots of people are uneducated these days when it comes to raw cards but this isn't the golden days where most card purchases were made where you could actually hold the card in your hand and examine it BEFORE buying it.

How many purchases has one made with the actual card in hand to examine before purchasing in the last 10-15 years? Probably, not many with the exception of the National and other shows.

Card grading was a great idea that was greatly needed with internet trading being what it has been for the last 20-25 years but then the greed took over and what could have been good thing for the hobby, just gave some a license to print money.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by LOUCARDFAN

... but then the greed took over and what could have been good thing for the hobby, just gave some a license to print money.

THEN the greed took over?

Hahahahahahaha, I'm rolling on the floor laughing over here (and my hotel has hardwood floors, so it's a bit uncomfortable).

It was kind of early in the process when the greed took over...

Allow me to, once again, point out the very FIRST card that the biggest seller of opinions ever gave an opinion on (although it was pointed last time I mentioned it that they were probably giving that opinion for no charge)...

Ladies and gentleman, straight from being hand cut from a sheet, the first paid opinion that mattered, #00000001, I present to you the world's most valuable card, the authentic, oops, sorry, I mean 8 on a 10 scale, Gretzky Wagner...

[doug.goodman]

When a thread gets this long, sometimes it helps to post the same jokes.

And it IS a joke.

Doug "just call me the dead horse beater" Goodman

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

THEN the greed took over?

Hahahahahahaha, I'm rolling on the floor laughing over here (and my hotel has hardwood floors, so it's a bit uncomfortable).

It was kind of early in the process when the greed took over...

Allow me to, once again, point out the very FIRST card that the biggest seller of opinions ever gave an opinion on (although it was pointed last time I mentioned it that they were probably giving that opinion for no charge)...

Ladies and gentleman, straight from being hand cut from a sheet, the first paid opinion that mattered, #00000001, I present to you the world's most valuable card, the authentic, oops, sorry, I mean 8 on a 10 scale, Gretzky Wagner...

And I would remind people that one of the most famous cards in our hobby - the 1933 Goudey Lajoie - was basically a scam pulled on collectors.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

THEN the greed took over?





Ladies and gentleman, straight from being hand cut from a sheet, the first paid opinion that mattered, #00000001, I present to you the world's most valuable card, the authentic, oops, sorry, I mean 8 on a 10 scale, Gretzky Wagner...

Yep. I’ve been saying this for years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

My guiding rules. I feel like Satchel Paige lol.

1. Avoid sellers you don't trust.
2. Use VCP to make sure cards didn't originate with sellers you don't trust.
3. Don't buy cards that look short.
4. Don't buy cards if your first reaction is to question whether they're altered. Trust the unconscious reaction.
5. Don't buy high grade pre-war.
6. Past a certain value threshold, for 50s cards don't buy anything over a 7, and for 60s cards don't buy anything over an 8. And even there, consider 6s and 7s.
7. Don't pay huge premiums for perfect centering.

[Leon]

I get why you said it but number 7 is blasphemy. Just make sure the borders are big AND thick.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My guiding rules. I feel like Satchel Paige lol.

1. Avoid sellers you don't trust.
2. Use VCP to make sure cards didn't originate with sellers you don't trust.
3. Don't buy cards that look short.
4. Don't buy cards if your first reaction is to question whether they're altered. Trust the unconscious reaction.
5. Don't buy high grade pre-war.
6. Past a certain value threshold, for 50s cards don't buy anything over a 7, and for 60s cards don't buy anything over an 8. And even there, consider 6s and 7s.
7. Don't pay huge premiums for perfect centering.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I get why you said it but number 7 is blasphemy. Just make sure the borders are big AND thick.

Oh, no doubt. But wouldn't you agree those cards are more likely to have been worked on?

[Leon]

Yes but I am not about to give up great looking, well centered vintage cards.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh, no doubt. But wouldn't you agree those cards are more likely to have been worked on?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Me too. Many did. But the depth and breadth is more astonishing than I had anticipated it would be, to say the least.

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

Doug "but Maybe I'm 50-50" Goodman...

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

Doug--This and a small irrigation screw driver takes 10 seconds. Safer than a kitchen knife