Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm not the peanut gallery.

I have plenty of soup, I just don't pay people for opinions on mine.

Everybody who has purchased a card in the last 20 years is effected by this issue, but anybody who is just now finding out about this issue must not have noticed that the very first paid opinion delivered by the king of all paid opinion givers was for a trimmed card.

It's all been down hill from there, and anybody who ever thought it wasn't, well, they were / are delusional.

EVERY card EVER given a paid opinion is suspect.

Break out those kitchen knives (at least that's what I use) and get back to where this hobby was when (many (most?) of us) started, and before it was hijacked.

Each and every one of us who has paid for an opinion is part of the problem.

Doug "but maybe I'm completely wrong" Goodman

It started around the Copeland auction, right? Wasn't that auction full of trimmed cards besides the Wagner?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It started around the Copeland auction, right? Wasn't that auction full of trimmed cards besides the Wagner?

No, it started the moment we started paying people for their opinions and then treating those opinions as gospel.

Actually, the opinions were never completely treated as gospel, because most of the card "deserved a better opinion" according to their sellers.

So even though nobody ever seemed to get an opinion as good as they deserved (by definition a bad opinion), they still continued paying for them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

No, it started the moment we started paying people for their opinions and then treating those opinions as gospel.

Yes but you said let's get the hobby back where it was. I think where it was, was riddled with trimmed cards.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but you said let's get the hobby back where it was. I think where it was, was riddled with trimmed cards.

Not sure which response is best :

1 - Which we didn't buy because we were buying the card instead of the opinion...

2 - oh, you mean like today (based on this thread)?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Not sure which response is best :

1 - Which we didn't buy because we were buying the card instead of the opinion...

2 - oh, you mean like today (based on this thread)?

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

Depends on what part of pre grading you are referring to. The prices was a lot better back then. If you are buying trimmed cards anyway why not spend less.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

At the end of the day, there have always been, and always will be, assholes who will lie about what they are selling, and will game whatever system is in place for their benefit.

Since the phrase "buyer beware" comes from the Latin "caveat emptor" I will assume that means there were assholes when Latin was a more popular language... (ergo, a long time ago).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

At the end of the day, there have always been, and always will be, assholes who will lie about what they are selling, and will game whatever system is in place for their benefit.

Sine the phrase "buyer beware" comes from the Latin "caveat emptor" I will assume that means there were assholes when Latin was a more popular language... (a long time ago).

True enough. As I've said before, the first bushel of wheat sold in the Agora was probably shilled up.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't disagree, just questioning whether pre-grading was so great either I guess.

Sure trimmed cards were running rampant pre-grading, but if you took the time to educate yourself - learn the difference between a factory cut and a non-factory cut - you probably wouldn't fall victim. PSA came along and what did they bring to the table? Nothing. Did they have some special lenses or some kind of special software that detects trimmed cards? No. They simply use their eyes (and maybe magnification, but any collector had access to that). The bottom line is that collectors were too damn lazy to educate themselves on what to look for. So, it's not that the hobby was so bad pre-grading (it sure is a lot worse now), it's collectors were too lazy. The funny thing is that what grading hoped to accomplish - catching altered cards so that buyers don't get burned - isn't being done. Is the hobby really better off with grading? Did grading really solve the doctored card problem? Or, and really think about this, did it make it worse with all the greed over high dollar cards?

I'm like Doug. I, too, find this whole situation very funny. This situation doesn't effect me or my collection one bit. I'm a mid-grade raw collector. In fact, I think it helps the value of my cards. Maybe people will wake up and realize they don't have to have that card in high grade mint condition with a pretty label and hologram sitting inside a slab? Maybe they'll wake up and realize that a nice well centered Ex to Ex/Mt card could bring them as much joy as the same card in a PSA 8, 9, or 10 holder? Maybe raw, mid grade cards will make a comeback as people really do start buying the card and not the holder instead of just preaching it? To all the people with high grade cards sitting in slabs, I do feel bad for you, but I'm also laughing at the same time. You went to bed last night wondering if you have any altered cards in your collection. You woke up this morning wondering the same thing and you're still wondering that as you read these threads. I don't have to wonder those things.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Sure trimmed cards were running rampant pre-grading, but if you took the time to educate yourself - learn the difference between a factory cut and a non-factory cut - you probably wouldn't fall victim. PSA came along and what did they bring to the table? Nothing. Did they have some special lenses or some kind of special software that detects trimmed cards? No. They simply use their eyes (and maybe magnification, but any collector had access to that). The bottom line is that collectors were too damn lazy to educate themselves on what to look for. So, it's not that the hobby was so bad pre-grading (it sure is a lot worse now), it's collectors were too lazy. The funny thing is that what grading hoped to accomplish - catching altered cards so that buyers don't get burned - isn't being done. Is the hobby really better off with grading? Did grading really solve the doctored card problem? Or, and really think about this, did it make it worse with all the greed over high dollar cards?

I'm like Doug. I, too, find this whole situation very funny. This situation doesn't effect me or my collection one bit. I'm a mid-grade raw collector. In fact, I think it helps the value of my cards. Maybe people will wake up and realize they don't have to have that card in high grade mint condition with a pretty label and hologram sitting inside a slab? Maybe they'll wake up and realize that a nice well centered Ex to Ex/Mt card could bring them as much joy as the same card in a PSA 8, 9, or 10 holder? Maybe raw, mid grade cards will make a comeback as people really do start buying the card and not the holder instead of just preaching it? To all the people with high grade cards sitting in slabs, I do feel bad for you, but I'm also laughing at the same time. You went to bed last night wondering if you have any altered cards in your collection. You woke up this morning wondering the same thing and you're still wondering that as you read these threads. I don't have to wonder those things.

Whether we want to admit it or not...this affects all of our collections to some degree. There will be an exodus of sorts of a % of people from the hobby. I've considered this myself. Overall values of many cards will fall.