Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1982758

"They simply don't come looking like this."

substitute george mikan rookie card with loch ness monster!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You have to look at this Mikan RC listing

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

Agreed, but it looks like a long wave, more of a tsunami, if that's part of the hobby lexicon. I'd give it a Tsunami Sticker.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Look at the right border. It's really wavy. You can tell more from the back view, but you can see it from the front as well.

Lower right corner? First thing I noticed. Is the other edge wavy too and just obscured by the slat, not sure. Doesn't look like a rough cut in any event. Older grade too. But hey, as we all know, PWCC would probably get the same price just showing the flip.

[irv]

Originally Posted by irv

Glyn, I have always noticed you to be a staunch supporter of PSA grading so I am curious, in light of these recent developments here and on BO, if your good thoughts on PSA still remain?

I will admit, after reading some of your posts, you had me swaying back sometimes thinking maybe I was being too critical of them, but I can tell you with a 100% certainty now, I will never be swayed back based on what I have seen and learned on these 2 sites within the last couple weeks.

Originally Posted by glynparson

Quote:
I think they make mistakes. I think all of them make mistakes. i still think their senior graders are very good at what they do. They obviously aren't perfect it is just that some of these doctors are damn good. These rough cuts they are doing now are downright scary. I am still a psa guy I don't think they are flawless I never did. I am more angry at what the card doctors have done. I am hopeful PSA will ban the doctors from submitting as it is not good for anyone. ANd i hope Brent does what he says in the video, but i hope he also notes all "conservation" he knows occurs not just what he determines is visible on the card but what he knows and or what is visible should be noted.

I thought you might still answer this way? Your lack of acknowledging them in these PWCC threads lead me to believe that you'd still defend them.

The thing is, your reply is the same as it has always been, that some make mistakes.
I'm not trying to convert you to change your view but have you been following the Blow Out threads?

In my opinion, it is practically conclusive now that something fishy/nefarious is going on with them based on what I have seen that gets passed and assigned a numerical grade.

My opinion, like I stated earlier, was wishy washy once upon a time based on what you stated about them but with these recent PSA slabs that are being shown in just these past couple weeks alone, it is enough for me to cement my opinion.

It is clear, to me at least, based on what I have seen that I can no longer accept that these cards were simple mistakes made by the graders. I could accept the odd one here or there but there are far way too many of them now to even consider that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

[vthobby]

Here are some 1948 Bowmans that have NEVER been touched, bleached, trimmed or anything.......I'm not making an opinion on the Mikan, I just know where these 1948s came from so you can make your own comparisons.
They came from an original family's collection of 1948 low numbers. This is how real untouched 1948 Bowmans looks like. I still feel they are under graded but I'm biased as they are mine! You can also see how they almost fully fill the gaskets with barely no room to spare.
Just for comparison only!
Thanks! Mike

002.jpg

005.jpg

003.jpg

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

They play a numbers game, David, if enough get through, and they know from experience, they make money. You're wildly speculating at this point. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but you have no idea either.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

David, I have to say that I somewhat agree with you. I have seen over the years, Sellers with extremely high end T206s get grades that boggled the mind. I dont want to mention names, but two of them have represented hundreds of high end T206s on Ebay. I'm talking 8's and 9's that weren't even close to being right. To me, this seems like something that could easily be corrupted with graders and crooked owners. Afterall, the margin between higher end grades can be very marginal unless you really look at these cards on a regular basis...One of these Sellers recently sold a ton of 8's that just weren't close to the grade IMO....I'm sure it also happens in other series of cards as well....

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They play a numbers game, David, if enough get through, and they know from experience, they make money. You're wildly speculating at this point. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but you have no idea either.

Oh c'mon, David know better than any of us. He knows not a single card is ever rejected, and every grader is "shady". The doctors put a little smiley face on the package so the grader knows which box to grab from the thousands that come in every day. Then the grader lists them as commons so they dont trigger a higher service level and no other senior grader will look at them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Oh c'mon, David know better than any of us. He knows not a single card is ever rejected, and every grader is "shady". The doctors put a little smiley face on the package so the grader knows which box to grab from the thousands that come in every day. Then the grader lists them as commons so they dont trigger a higher service level and no other senior grader will look at them.

And the cash is sewn into a secret compartment in the box.

[Republicaninmass]

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.

Then you are a sucker. I hear the going rate is only a Grant.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Then you are a sucker. I hear the going rate is only a Grant.

Just put in a signed blank check to see who is correct.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

Well, no matter how hard I look, I don't see anywhere on the PSA website where they indicate that they will get it right unless the card has been altered by very good card doctors so it slips by them. Up to now, I sort of thought that getting it right was part of what PSA sold. Very clearly, that is not always the case.

I frankly have no idea how many mistakes they make on high-grade cards, where accuracy would seem to be rather important given the prices they now command, but just the number shown so far is more than sufficient to cause me concern. As I have previously said, trust is what PSA purportedly sells. I no longer trust PSA to get it right. The claim that it might be a "low percentage" of cards (thus far) is rather less important to me than the fact that a large percentage of those shown thus far are selling for a lot of money. That's not good.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

I know they grade a pile of cards, Peter, but even before this latest scandal, I seen far too many questionable grades and other things that made me put up a red flag.
With this latest scandal and all that I have seen on BO concerning this, I can no longer say to myself, these are just mistakes and mistakes happen.

I know people have a pile of money wrapped up in PSA graded cards so I understand those that don't want to accept something peculiar is going on with PSA but, imo, the evidence is glaring something is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

I know they grade a pile of cards, Peter, but even before this latest scandal, I seen far too many questionable grades and other things that made me put up a red flag.
With this latest scandal and all that I have seen on BO concerning this, I can no longer say to myself, these are just mistakes and mistakes happen.

I know people have a pile of money wrapped up in PSA graded cards so I understand those that don't want to accept something peculiar is going on with PSA but, imo, the evidence is glaring something is.

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

[RedsFan1941]

seems like hats made of tin foil would be big sellers on the BST.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

I hope that is the case but my gut tells me it isn't.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

Come on, Peter. In your profession, do they give the really big cases to the junior attorneys? I work for an oil and gas engineering company. We don't give the hard stuff to junior engineers.

At PSA, wouldn't it raise a red flag by whoever is processsing an order if there was a 52 Mantle in the submission? Wouldn't someone say, "We better get one of our senior graders on this?"

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

If so, that's a piss-poor explanation IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Come on, Peter. In your profession, do they give the really big cases to the junior attorneys? I work for an oil and gas engineering company. We don't give the hard stuff to junior engineers.

At PSA, wouldn't it raise a red flag by whoever is processsing an order if there was a 52 Mantle in the submission? Wouldn't someone say, "We better get one of our senior graders on this?"

David it's a fair point, one I've considered, but part of the equation is the work is very good and in some cases may make it past the senior graders too. I am not insisting I am right, just skeptical there is out and out corruption here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

If so, that's a piss-poor explanation IMO.

Agreed, I don't mean to defend it, just trying to find an explanation short of corruption.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed, I don't mean to defend it, just trying to find an explanation short of corruption.

At this point, PSA has to be aware of all this and realize they could be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why haven't they addressed it?

Like his responses or not, at least Brent addresses the problems.

[ValKehl]

Does anyone besides me think this would be a good time to go short on CLCT stock?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Does anyone besides me think this would be a good time to go short on CLCT stock?

No. It's been discussed here some of the reasons why not. Forget which thread.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

At this point, PSA has to be aware of all this and realize they could be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why haven't they addressed it?

I just sent an email back to Steve Sloan and Betsy asking the same thing. This scandal is not blowing over.

[irv]

Unless I am missing something, look at how this newly discovered Ted Williams card resides in its PSA case. (Pg53)

Is it too much to expect anyone at PSA "should" clearly see it is not as wide as it should be?
Take a look at the "look and See" cards that were posted earlier in the thread below. There are many others going further back as well that makes me just shake my head in disbelief how these types of mistakes are allowed to continue.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=53

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

At this point, PSA has to be aware of all this and realize they could be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why haven't they addressed it?

Like his responses or not, at least Brent addresses the problems.

Because the people at PSA are not morons like Brent and Betsy. It baffles me how 2 otherwise intelligent people are too stupid to shut the BLEEP up.

Just look at any other of the latest greatest scandals. When the guilty person(s) was completely silent the scandal went away very quickly. The Mastro fiasco is a perfect example of this.

Originally Posted by swarmee

I just sent an email back to Steve Sloan and Betsy asking the same thing. This scandal is not blowing over.

It will just like all the others. I would be surprised if this lasts another 2 weeks and baffled beyond belief if it is still going in a month.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Because the people at PSA are not morons like Brent and Betsy. It baffles me how 2 otherwise intelligent people are too stupid to shut the BLEEP up.

Just look at any other of the latest greatest scandals. When the guilty person(s) was completely silent the scandal went away very quickly. The Mastro fiasco is a perfect example of this.



It will just like all the others. I would be surprised if this lasts another 2 weeks and baffled beyond belief if it is still going in a month.

Yeah I remember when the sky was falling because of all the slabs from Mexico. What happened to all that worry?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah I remember when the sky was falling because of all the slabs from Mexico. What happened to all that worry?

It went away but I would bet the slabs from Mexico didn't go away.

[vintagetoppsguy]

True, but PSA wasn't financially responsible for the slabs from Mexico, but they're on the hook big time for all these doctored cards.

[swarmee]

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

[irv]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

Why would he do that? Are Brent and the owner of PSA really good friends or something?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

He had better pray most guys with the bad cards won't know or won't care. If he gets into fights about whether the returner met his burden, he'll get annihilated on Blowout.

[vintagewhitesox]

This is going to be exhibit A in the Criminal complaint and search warrant. It's almost like he's trying to define away the term fraud.

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

Talk is cheap. I simply don't trust the guy.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He had better pray most guys with the bad cards won't know or won't care. If he gets into fights about whether the returner met his burden, he'll get annihilated on Blowout.

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

He does seem to care or he and Betsy wouldn't keep posting there. There must be some spillover effect even if the posts you are referencing didn't go viral.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He does seem to care or he and Betsy wouldn't keep posting there. There must be some spillover effect even if the posts you are referencing didn't go viral.

That is what is the most crazy part to me, it makes no sense at all. It has been proven over and over if you just shut up it goes away fairly quickly.

[Leon]

A lot of what is posted over there is fact BUT a lot of it is conjecture too. With absolutely no accountability they can say anything at all, lies and falsehoods included, and not worry about any repercussions. Again, some of them do great stuff and are factual....and some of them are trolls and criminals just lying out of their pie holes. I think that is the reason some things don't get traction, because they are fallacies from anonymous idiots.

Originally Posted by bnorth

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is what is the most crazy part to me, it makes no sense at all. It has been proven over and over if you just shut up it goes away fairly quickly.

Yep. He can't seem to help himself though. And now videos.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

I don't think PSA is doing their job correctly. And you are correct, that is the real problem. It wouldn't take catching every alteration, just nearly all of them.
The entire business model of faster turn around times for more expensive stuff is flawed, and invites alterations.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

A lot of what is posted over there is fact BUT a lot of it is conjecture too. With absolutely no accountability they can say anything at all, lies and falsehoods included, and not worry about any repercussions. Again, some of them do great stuff and are factual....and some of them are trolls and criminals just lying out of their pie holes. I think that is the reason some things don't get traction, because they are fallacies from anonymous idiots.

Maybe we should go over the lots/some facts/falsities one by one and debunk/prove as fact/fiction???? Seems to me most are facts!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

This is spot-on. And I cannot believe more people haven't addressed and expounded on this aspect. The PSA element is far more dangerous and all-encompassing than PWCC's role. I can only assume the lack of focus and anger towards PSA is because nearly everyone here has a vested interest of some sort.

I really hope the FBI is watching this, and is planning to come down on these people... The first week of August in Chicago might be a great time for it. Would love to see them do to PSA exactly what they did to Mastro/Legendary.

[HolyGrail]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

Show me where Jefferson Burdick talked about cards as assets. Comparing Brent to JB is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long long time!

[drcy]

Convenience and safe target. PSA is a sacred cow and ubiquitously ingrained in many people's collections.

I've for many years assumed that many high grade cards in PSA holders have been "conserved." Even one major auction house president years back advertised that they could "prep" your cards for grading.

Happily for me, owning '9s' and '10s' never interested me as a collector. Just my aesthetics/sentiments (and understanding that 'art is in the eye of the beholder'), but I never understood the need to own a Gem Mint copy of any particular card.