Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

They play a numbers game, David, if enough get through, and they know from experience, they make money. You're wildly speculating at this point. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but you have no idea either.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They play a numbers game, David, if enough get through, and they know from experience, they make money. You're wildly speculating at this point. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but you have no idea either.

Oh c'mon, David know better than any of us. He knows not a single card is ever rejected, and every grader is "shady". The doctors put a little smiley face on the package so the grader knows which box to grab from the thousands that come in every day. Then the grader lists them as commons so they dont trigger a higher service level and no other senior grader will look at them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Oh c'mon, David know better than any of us. He knows not a single card is ever rejected, and every grader is "shady". The doctors put a little smiley face on the package so the grader knows which box to grab from the thousands that come in every day. Then the grader lists them as commons so they dont trigger a higher service level and no other senior grader will look at them.

And the cash is sewn into a secret compartment in the box.

[Republicaninmass]

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I just put a Ben Franklin in each Card Saver since they are all in on it.

Then you are a sucker. I hear the going rate is only a Grant.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We're not talking about common cards that are being doctored and turned into low pop commons worth a lot of money. If that were the case, and the doctor screws up or the card fails to grade, then it wouldn't be much of a financial loss for the doctor. Here's my point. We're talking about cards that are still worth a lot of money even before they're doctored. How sure does the doctor have to be that the cards will grade? Seems like a bold move and takes a lot of confidence...unless he's already guaranteed it will grade numerically. Heck, many collectors are afraid they'll damage a card, just by cracking and re-submiting. So how big a balls does it take for these doctors to buy the card, crack it out, doctor it and re-grade it? Too many risks involved...unless they know for sure it will grade.

I just wonder what kind of kickbacks the graders are getting? A set price per card? A percentage of the profit?

David, I have to say that I somewhat agree with you. I have seen over the years, Sellers with extremely high end T206s get grades that boggled the mind. I dont want to mention names, but two of them have represented hundreds of high end T206s on Ebay. I'm talking 8's and 9's that weren't even close to being right. To me, this seems like something that could easily be corrupted with graders and crooked owners. Afterall, the margin between higher end grades can be very marginal unless you really look at these cards on a regular basis...One of these Sellers recently sold a ton of 8's that just weren't close to the grade IMO....I'm sure it also happens in other series of cards as well....

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

Well, no matter how hard I look, I don't see anywhere on the PSA website where they indicate that they will get it right unless the card has been altered by very good card doctors so it slips by them. Up to now, I sort of thought that getting it right was part of what PSA sold. Very clearly, that is not always the case.

I frankly have no idea how many mistakes they make on high-grade cards, where accuracy would seem to be rather important given the prices they now command, but just the number shown so far is more than sufficient to cause me concern. As I have previously said, trust is what PSA purportedly sells. I no longer trust PSA to get it right. The claim that it might be a "low percentage" of cards (thus far) is rather less important to me than the fact that a large percentage of those shown thus far are selling for a lot of money. That's not good.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am still not convinced, Dale. In the context of how many cards they grade it's still a very low percentage of mistakes, and the BO guys have the benefit of before and after scans which makes it easy. These doctors, especially the one who can recreate factory edges, are really talented.

I know they grade a pile of cards, Peter, but even before this latest scandal, I seen far too many questionable grades and other things that made me put up a red flag.
With this latest scandal and all that I have seen on BO concerning this, I can no longer say to myself, these are just mistakes and mistakes happen.

I know people have a pile of money wrapped up in PSA graded cards so I understand those that don't want to accept something peculiar is going on with PSA but, imo, the evidence is glaring something is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

I know they grade a pile of cards, Peter, but even before this latest scandal, I seen far too many questionable grades and other things that made me put up a red flag.
With this latest scandal and all that I have seen on BO concerning this, I can no longer say to myself, these are just mistakes and mistakes happen.

I know people have a pile of money wrapped up in PSA graded cards so I understand those that don't want to accept something peculiar is going on with PSA but, imo, the evidence is glaring something is.

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

Come on, Peter. In your profession, do they give the really big cases to the junior attorneys? I work for an oil and gas engineering company. We don't give the hard stuff to junior engineers.

At PSA, wouldn't it raise a red flag by whoever is processsing an order if there was a 52 Mantle in the submission? Wouldn't someone say, "We better get one of our senior graders on this?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Come on, Peter. In your profession, do they give the really big cases to the junior attorneys? I work for an oil and gas engineering company. We don't give the hard stuff to junior engineers.

At PSA, wouldn't it raise a red flag by whoever is processsing an order if there was a 52 Mantle in the submission? Wouldn't someone say, "We better get one of our senior graders on this?"

David it's a fair point, one I've considered, but part of the equation is the work is very good and in some cases may make it past the senior graders too. I am not insisting I am right, just skeptical there is out and out corruption here.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

If so, that's a piss-poor explanation IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

If so, that's a piss-poor explanation IMO.

Agreed, I don't mean to defend it, just trying to find an explanation short of corruption.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed, I don't mean to defend it, just trying to find an explanation short of corruption.

At this point, PSA has to be aware of all this and realize they could be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why haven't they addressed it?

Like his responses or not, at least Brent addresses the problems.

[RedsFan1941]

seems like hats made of tin foil would be big sellers on the BST.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The junior graders are not competent and they're under tremendous time pressure. The card doctors are very skilled. Nothing would shock me, of course, but I think that's the explanation.

I hope that is the case but my gut tells me it isn't.