Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies

[swarmee]

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

[irv]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

Why would he do that? Are Brent and the owner of PSA really good friends or something?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

He had better pray most guys with the bad cards won't know or won't care. If he gets into fights about whether the returner met his burden, he'll get annihilated on Blowout.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He had better pray most guys with the bad cards won't know or won't care. If he gets into fights about whether the returner met his burden, he'll get annihilated on Blowout.

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

I don't think PSA is doing their job correctly. And you are correct, that is the real problem. It wouldn't take catching every alteration, just nearly all of them.
The entire business model of faster turn around times for more expensive stuff is flawed, and invites alterations.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I think too much focus is being put on Brent/PWCC. As I mentioned before, the scam takes 3 parties - the doctor/submitter, PSA and then someone to sell them (whether knowingly or unknowingly). And whether complicit or incompetent, PSA is the key to making the scam work. You can take the best card doctor in the world, but if PSA is doing their job correctly and none of the doctored cards get past, then those cards really aren't worth anything (other than their raw ungraded value). So there would be no point in doctoring, the doctor finds some other way or hobby to scam. But if PSA continues the pass them, the doctor will still be in business. So let's say Brent/PWCC never takes in another doctored card on consignment ever again. The doctor doesn't need Brent/PWCC to make this work. He can use any other auction / consignment house and under many different names. Do you see how none of this is possible without PSA?

This is spot-on. And I cannot believe more people haven't addressed and expounded on this aspect. The PSA element is far more dangerous and all-encompassing than PWCC's role. I can only assume the lack of focus and anger towards PSA is because nearly everyone here has a vested interest of some sort.

I really hope the FBI is watching this, and is planning to come down on these people... The first week of August in Chicago might be a great time for it. Would love to see them do to PSA exactly what they did to Mastro/Legendary.

[drcy]

Convenience and safe target. PSA is a sacred cow and ubiquitously ingrained in many people's collections.

I've for many years assumed that many high grade cards in PSA holders have been "conserved." Even one major auction house president years back advertised that they could "prep" your cards for grading.

Happily for me, owning '9s' and '10s' never interested me as a collector. Just my aesthetics/sentiments (and understanding that 'art is in the eye of the beholder'), but I never understood the need to own a Gem Mint copy of any particular card.

[Republicaninmass]

Dont blame the people who committed mortgage fraud, blame the lenders for allowing it.


Dont blame the Madoff for the stock fraud, blame wall street for allowing it.


Dont blame "no so bright" Brent and the collusion of people around him. Blame PSA for allowing it.


With both items bought sold on his platform multiple times, the shilling and bid retractions from whomever, the "dont worry you'll get outbid" rumors, it seems the ring has been caught red handed. There wouldn't be concrete evidence, only conjecture, if the numbskulls hadn't used NUMBERED cards

I know PWCC and his jug band of investment advisors recommend not bidding on a certain card to investors, but would they reccomend some conservation to get a better grade?


I am as shocked as anyone these cards passed PSA. I would assume a new card would be trimmed, but these vintage ones are bitter pill.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

He does seem to care or he and Betsy wouldn't keep posting there. There must be some spillover effect even if the posts you are referencing didn't go viral.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He does seem to care or he and Betsy wouldn't keep posting there. There must be some spillover effect even if the posts you are referencing didn't go viral.

That is what is the most crazy part to me, it makes no sense at all. It has been proven over and over if you just shut up it goes away fairly quickly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is what is the most crazy part to me, it makes no sense at all. It has been proven over and over if you just shut up it goes away fairly quickly.

Yep. He can't seem to help himself though. And now videos.

[Leon]

A lot of what is posted over there is fact BUT a lot of it is conjecture too. With absolutely no accountability they can say anything at all, lies and falsehoods included, and not worry about any repercussions. Again, some of them do great stuff and are factual....and some of them are trolls and criminals just lying out of their pie holes. I think that is the reason some things don't get traction, because they are fallacies from anonymous idiots.

Originally Posted by bnorth

Annihilated on blowout, why would he or anybody else care.LOL Blowout is kinda like telling your mom or the BBB. Telling them might make you feel better but there is absolutely nothing they can really do.

Not that long ago they called out some members over here for shill bidding, trimming cards, and a few other things. Hell that news didn't even get a single post over here.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

A lot of what is posted over there is fact BUT a lot of it is conjecture too. With absolutely no accountability they can say anything at all, lies and falsehoods included, and not worry about any repercussions. Again, some of them do great stuff and are factual....and some of them are trolls and criminals just lying out of their pie holes. I think that is the reason some things don't get traction, because they are fallacies from anonymous idiots.

Maybe we should go over the lots/some facts/falsities one by one and debunk/prove as fact/fiction???? Seems to me most are facts!

[HolyGrail]

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

Show me where Jefferson Burdick talked about cards as assets. Comparing Brent to JB is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long long time!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

Mastro

Doug Allen

John Rogers

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

Would that be the same Old Judge who disgustedly asked of Brent, who made this guy king, and posted he would never buy from him again?

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

Thank you for successfully trolling all of the Peters in this thread.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Haven't seen you post in a while. Should we expect another Forbes puff piece that everything is hunk-dory? Have you read any of the threads on Blowout? And you still want to say that everything PWCC does/has done is above board? Is recommending buyers that they evade state sales tax by shipping their items to the vault above board? Is not revealing which consignors they're "blocking" from listing items? How about not providing the information about which PSA cert numbers they submitted themselves vs. which ones were submitted by others? What you see as "hearsay and innuendo" I see as fire. What is your definition of conservation? I'll wait while Brent tells it to you.

Maybe it's time to start your investigative journalism angle to try to win a press award, instead.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer.

Look how much they've done for the industry through market research which landed them a huge story in The New York Times last year for heaven's sake. Who else in the industry can claim that?

And yes OldJudge is absolutely correct. Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent.

David- Are you the person that writes the stories about cards on Forbes?

[bounce]

I have read essentially every post of every major thread, and I watched the entirety of the interview video. After having reviewed all of that, my question to anyone would be this:

Is there any doubt that both PWCC and the TPGs (PSA specifically at a minimum) are aware of at least SOME of the people who are suspected/accused of trimming cards?


I for one have absolutely NO DOUBT they know who these people are, several of which have well less than stellar hobby reputations going back a long time prior. I simply don't believe any reasonable person at this point could refute that both PWCC and PSA know exactly who many of these people are.

I also believe it is VIRTUALLY CERTAIN they actually knew these people well prior to the recent outbreak of threads questioning the unaltered state of many of these cards. Brent effectively said as much, without using names, in the video.

If you come to the conclusion that they did know, then it stands to reason that they certainly SHOULD HAVE known they were taking great risk to their brands and their services by associating with these people, whether via accepting their cards for grading or for consignment services.

As the TPGs have basically chosen silence to this point, there's really nothing to say about them other than lack of response and to this point perceived lack of action.

With PWCC, their responses in my view have three primary themes.

1) We don't think you really understand what alteration means, so we're going to tell you what it means (or, more realistically, what it doesn't mean).
2) If you can't see evidence of alteration on the card, then it must not really be altered.
3) We're mad we caught up in this, and TRUST US, we're going to make some people pay.

The problem with 1): There is HUGE diversity in opinion on what alteration means in this hobby. Brent speaks in the video of not wanting to pursue things that can't be done, so why is he unable to see this as one of those things? It is highly unlikely that all the TPGs are going to get together and form a consensus standard that is adopted hobby wide, right? Maybe not impossible, but not highly likely. I'm paraphrasing the video, but at one point he uses the phrase "...this is where I need people to think critically...". Probably not the best choice of phrase if you're trying to persuade people to your side of things.

The problem with 2): This is effectively saying they're "hiding behind the slab", i.e. if PSA slabbed it with a number, it must have met their standards, we're just the consignment house so don't be mad at us. This simply just doesn't work if you believe that they did indeed know who some of these people were and were accepting their submissions on consignment. They KNOWINGLY DEALT WITH THESE PEOPLE - PERIOD. Again paraphrasing, Brent said something to the effect of "...photos don't constitute evidence...". I respectfully disagree with Brent on that, and I imagine an extremely large percentage of the hobby does as well. Photos are actually some of the absolute best evidence there is, and photos are exactly the evidence that has shown the serial numbered cards have been trimmed and yet still made it in numbered slabs. According to Brent, if photos aren't evidence, then those cards aren't trimmed. No reasonable person could believe that, I don't believe for one second that HE believes that.

The problem with 3): PWCC has been mixed up in so many issues, from the Dimaggio "cleaning" to the retracted/shill bidding to the changing definition of altered to acting like we didn't really think these bad actors would do these bad things...

In basically every instance, PWCC had or still has a significant monetary interest in keeping things as they were, how they want it to be or to keep it quiet. They've been "reacting" to people calling these things out, not proactively looking to deal with them. They're promising to "make people pay", but they can't tell us who those people are. They can only tell that to the TPGs. THAT would certainly be a start, but that's not what transparency looks like. It's also NOT what leaders do.

Paraphrasing again, Brent says in the video he "can't revise auctions after they've started". He SHOULD KNOW that's not accurate, otherwise PWCC is literally the only seller on eBay who can't. You can ALWAYS add to the description up until the very near end of an auction (I don't know the specifics, might be 24 hours or something, I'm sure someone can look that up). It appears as a new "section" within the description with a date and time stamp. I believe he knows this, and has again said something that isn't true and is trying to make us believe he doesn't know it's not true. That erodes trust.

What they have contributed to leading is the push for cards specifically, but collectibles more generally, to be viewed as an "alternate asset class" for investment. Unfortunately, I think many people view that as "cheerleading".

Thus, I think most people have little to no faith that the "trust me" portion of the video actually means anything, as there really isn't sufficient substantive action and accountability historically to justify that trust.

[Leon]

If you look at what I highlighted it was the questioning of other things, not Brent or PWCC, which I was responding to. I am not going to get into those things in this thread although I will say I have never shilled a .99 cent postcard (or anything at all) of mine on ebay or anywhere else, ever .

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Maybe we should go over the lots/some facts/falsities one by one and debunk/prove as fact/fiction???? Seems to me most are facts!

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I will see if anyone's keeping a running tally of all the losses that PWCC and PSA are on the hook for.
In the video interview, Brent said that if PWCC submitted the cards, they will eat the loss, not pass it on to PSA. Noble stance. Let's see if he follows through on it.

All I'm seeing so far is lip service.

Talk is cheap. I simply don't trust the guy.