Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[benjulmag]

From what I heard, there were other cards Ray had besides Plank and Wagner that presumably came from the same sheet. I have never heard of the existence of an image of the sheet before it was cut. There is a photocopy of the Wagner card as it looked when Ray sold it. I had a copy but when I last looked couldn't find it. I don't recall it being grainy, and I clearly recall a bow shape on I believe was the right border that is no longer there. So unless someone is to argue that image depicts a different card (which would not be a credible argument), IMO the card can conclusively be determined to have been trimmed. Then one can add to this evidence the admission by the trimmer, as well as borders that have the physical characteristics of a trimmed card.

As I said earlier, the fact that that is the cover card of the hobby and is listed in the registry as an 8 Wagner says all one needs to say about the real world of this hobby, as well as the notion that a high number grade on a tobacco or similar vintage card can be relied on to bear any correlation to the true condition of the card.

I will add, and this is from the perspective of a person who attended card shows in the late 60s and early 70s, that I have no recollection of seeing anywhere close to the number of high grade tobacco cards one sees at current shows.

Finally, simple common sense at least to me screams out how unrealistic is the idea that a card 110 years old issued as an insert in a tobacco box in an era when it was likely much more difficult to properly preserve paper items could possibly have survived as a10 (or maybe even a 9) today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is in my mind no doubt the card is trimmed. My thought is that it isn't particularly important given that pre-trimming it wasn't gradable anyhow. I think, unfortunately, your observation about high grade tobacco cards may be true for a lot of issues post-dating tobacco cards as well.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think, unfortunately, your observation about high grade tobacco cards may be true for a lot of issues post-dating tobacco cards as well.

I noticed this before the current controversy started because it seems very odd to me. Say there is a set from the 30s and the highest graded of a given card is PSA 8 and there are 4, have been for a long time. Then in 2018 or 2019 a 5th one pops up. No one even asks where it came from. Was there a find? Some unopened product got opened? Collectors seem happy to bid on it without any discussion of provenance. Even when you watch Pawn Stars, the first thing they ask is "Where did you get it?" With cards, doesn't seem to matter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think over time our eyes adjust and cards that once looked a bit short start to look normal.

I think this is especially true for the E cards.

[benjulmag]

Peter,

I will never forget an encounter I had in the mid-80s with an experienced collector/dealer who was looking for a particular '33 Goudey card for his personal collection. He was a high grade collector. He finally found the card at a show that I attended and showed it me. I remember taking note that while the condition was very nice, it clearly looked like a card 50+ years old. In my mind it was an ex-mt plus to maybe as high as nr-mt. It was not higher, and that was based on the more lenient grading standards of that era. I remember at the time asking Alan Rosen if he could find me a very high grade '33 Goudey set (minus Lajoie) and what he would charge. After thinking for a moment he told me how difficult it would be to find such a set and how expensive it would be, but if he had one he would charge $4k.

That was the hobby then and what at least my expectations were as to what a high grade card would look like. Compare that to what one sees today at shows/auctions coupled with the tremendous price differential between grades and perhaps one can understand my skepticsm that such cards haven't been worked on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Peter,

I will never forget an encounter I had in the mid-80s with an experienced collector/dealer who was looking for a particular '33 Goudey card for his personal collection. He was a high grade collector. He finally found the card at a show that I attended and showed it me. I remember taking note that while the condition was very nice, it clearly looked like a card 50+ years old. In my mind it was an ex-mt plus to maybe as high as nr-mt. It was not higher, and that was based on the more lenient grading standards of that era. This was before the advent of grading and high prices. I remember at the time asking Alan Rosen if he could find me a very high grade '33 Goudey set (minus Lajoie) and what he would charge. After thinking for a moment he told me how difficult it would be to find such a set and how expensive it would be, but if he could he would charge $4k.

That was the hobby then and what at least my expectations were as to what a high grade card would looked like. Compare that to what one sees today at shows/auctions as long with the tremendous price differential between grades and perhaps one can understand my skepticsm that such cards haven't been worked on.

I had that conversation with Mike Wheat back in the 90s. He was baffled as to where all the high grade PSA prewar cards were coming from. He said he had handled countless thousands of cards and only on rare occasions had he seen cards as nice as the slabbed ones that seemed to be in abundance even then.

[barrysloate]

And yet nearly every time a high grade high demand card comes up at auction, it sets a new world record. It's a disconnect that no matter how many times we discuss it I just can't accept. Are the only people who recognize that something isn't right here the posters of Net54? Is everyone else oblivious?

[irv]

I've asked this question naively a few times how cards stayed so pristine that are 50 to 100+ yrs old, and although I have been told cigar boxes and in between pages of large books/encyclopedias, I have a hard time accepting the fact that so many back in the day were treated like this.

[Leon]

I am fairly positive some cards were kept pristine by being lost and/or not handled. However, I don't think that number scratches the surface of how many we see today. Apparently there are more high grade vintage cards being made every day.
IMO, There was no need to try to redefine what the hobby already accepts and doesn't accept, concerning alterations, and I told Brent that. He should also, immediately, distance himself from any known card doctors or trimmers (really from day one but it seems that ship has sailed). It is a shame too because I still feel PWCC is doing some great stuff that will help the hobby mature.
People have also taken a lot of things out of context. Brent feels trimming is bad. He feels flattening a card and trimming it is bad. He feels using a solvent is better than water as water can be more damaging, he states. I told him that the hobby has tacitly accepted water but nothing else. SO there you have it, a conversation that probably didn't need to happen but ...it has.

Originally Posted by irv

I've asked this question naively a few times how cards stayed so pristine that are 50 to 100+ yrs old, and although I have been told cigar boxes and in between pages of large books/encyclopedias, I have a hard time accepting the fact that so many back in the day were treated like this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And yet nearly every time a high grade high demand card comes up at auction, it sets a new world record. It's a disconnect that no matter how many times we discuss it I just can't accept. Are the only people who recognize that something isn't right here the posters of Net54? Is everyone else oblivious?

This is the human trait card doctors and their enablers have tapped into -- wishful thinking.

[barrysloate]

I guess I have different DNA, or something, because I have to be completely frank: I wouldn't touch that stuff. Recognizing I couldn't tell the difference between a genuine 8 and an altered 8, I'm running for the hills. To each his own.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Peter,

I will never forget an encounter I had in the mid-80s with an experienced collector/dealer who was looking for a particular '33 Goudey card for his personal collection. He was a high grade collector. He finally found the card at a show that I attended and showed it me. I remember taking note that while the condition was very nice, it clearly looked like a card 50+ years old. In my mind it was an ex-mt plus to maybe as high as nr-mt. It was not higher, and that was based on the more lenient grading standards of that era. I remember at the time asking Alan Rosen if he could find me a very high grade '33 Goudey set (minus Lajoie) and what he would charge. After thinking for a moment he told me how difficult it would be to find such a set and how expensive it would be, but if he had one he would charge $4k.

That was the hobby then and what at least my expectations were as to what a high grade card would looked like. Compare that to what one sees today at shows/auctions coupled with the tremendous price differential between grades and perhaps one can understand my skepticsm that such cards haven't been worked on.

I agree. I haven't ever been in a market for such cards but I have been attending shows since 1976 and I never, ever saw T206, Goudey and other prewar cards in the conditions we are seeing now, and I lingered over the eye candy at all of those shows. I don't think it is a N54 thing so much as it is a memory thing: those of us who were around the hobby 30+ years ago know how excruciatingly rare it was to find really nice prewar cards. Now there are literally tens of thousands of T206s in PSA 7 and better. Are we more aware of them due to the Internet, or are there just a lot more of them that there used to be? I don't know the answer but the situation stinks on ice.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I will add, and this is from the perspective of a person who attended card shows in the late 60s and early 70s, that I have no recollection of seeing anywhere close to the number of high grade tobacco cards one sees at current shows.

This, all day long. They weren't that way at shows in the mid-to late 80's either. And he's not the only one who said it. Do the math...

[steve B]

While I have to take the experiences of longtime dealers into account, I just can't totally buy that there were so few high grade older cards back then. I've been into things since .. figure 78, since that's when I went to my first show.
Very high grade prewar cards weren't common then, but to say they're common now is a bit of a stretch.

Looking at the pop reports, which may be slightly high
For T206
PSA 8 8+ 9 10
2394 61 278 13

Qualifiers 8 129
9 40

Total graded - about 237,000
2915 is a bit over 1% (1.22)

SGC. (Incomplete as the pop report doesn't list 350-460 piedmonts, or at least didn't find them in the search - Yeah, it's really bad. )

8 167
8.5 43
9 28

Didn't do a total. It would have taken way too long.


That's not really all that many, especially considering how many out there that are mid grade or lower just aren't graded.

What is probably happening is that those high grade cards get more attention, and probably are for sale more often. (I'm amazed how often you guys move cards along, many of mine have been with me for 30 + years)

That doesn't mean that the high grade ones aren't altered, but the number of them out there is actually pretty reasonable.
The best I graded myself is a 7, and that came from a collection that arrived at the dealers in a box, like nearly all of them did in the early 80's. I had it in a sheet, then a screwdown, and eventually a toploader and penny sleeve.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by steve B

The best I graded myself is a 7, and that came from a collection that arrived at the dealers in a box, like nearly all of them did in the early 80's. I had it in a sheet, then a screwdown, and eventually a toploader and penny sleeve.

My concern about the number of high-grade cards is not centered around 7's. It is centered around 8's - 10's. Even if a person in 1909 saw a card he/she really liked and wanted to preserve it, I would think simply taking it out of the cigarette box and transporting it to some storage box would cause enough damage to prevent it from being a true 9. And that assumes during the ensuing 100+ years no one took the card out of the box and handled it. As for 10's, no disrespect intended, but are you kidding?

Today when vintage packs are opened and cards are pulled, do you notice the care that is taken to do that? And we are to believe such care took place a century ago when cards had NO value? Don't take my word for it. Blow up the borders of vintage 10's. When I do I see shavings or uneven borders. And I'll wager that if there a difference between the chemical composition of untrimmed borders exposed to the elements for 100+ years and trimmed borders exposed to the elements for only a few years, which difference can be revealed by advanced forensic testing, all T206 10's would be shown to be altered.

I remember in the 1990's a respected old-time dealer displayed on his table altered cards, identified as such. To my eyes, they looked totally natural. That dealer displayed them to portend the future of the hobby. I believe he hit the nail on the head.

[Kenny Cole]

Nah. Everything's good and on the up and up. Just ask some of the pundits here. Or ask PWCC. Assuming that there were ever any shenanigans going on, with that auction, they have now solemnly vowed to fix it. If those high grade cards (with the stickers) weren't on the up and up and they agree (which I am sure will often occur), they're going to take care of it. Seriously. LOL.

I have been around shows since the mid-1970s. I frequented the local card shops around Temple City (just south of LA) religiously from about 1976-1979 when I went to college. There were three shops close to me. Back then they all had early cards. My brother and I were into the history of baseball and quickly got into the early cards, T206s, Goudeys, E-cards, the occasional N 172, etc. At that time, of course, nothing was graded. This is anecdotal, but I don't recall ever seeing even one card as sharp as those that are, at least in a relative sense, fairly prevalent now. Had I seen such a card, I would have bought it if I could afford it. I have none. Nor did I ever find such a card that I couldn't afford as a kid. My cards from back then are 2s to maybe, if I was lucky, a 5. Not a 7, 8, 9 or 10. They didn't exist back then. They do now. Why is that?

[barrysloate]

I don't think kids in 1909 were looking to preserve cigarette cards in mint condition for posterity. That wasn't the mindset at all. They were handled and played with. Some were put away in decent shape, of course, but not pristine.

There are outliers, like the Southern find or Black Swamp find, but these were kids living in a rough and tumble age. Handling cigarette cards with white gloves was for sissies.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't think kids in 1909 were looking to preserve cigarette cards in mint condition for posterity. That wasn't the mindset at all. They were handled and played with. Some were put away in decent shape, of course, but not pristine.

There are outliers, like the Southern find or Black Swamp find, but these were kids living in a rough and tumble age. Handling cigarette cards with white gloves was for sissies.

Additionally... I recall articles talking about kids looking for such cards on the ground...which would not contribute to keeping cards in tip top shape.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Nah. Everything's good and on the up and up. Just ask some of the pundits here. Or ask PWCC. Assuming that there were ever any shenanigans going on, with that auction, they have now solemnly vowed to fix it. If those high grade cards (with the stickers) weren't on the up and up and they agree (which I am sure will often occur), they're going to take care of it. Seriously. LOL.

Yeah, it's easy to offer a refund, but there's an element of disingenuousness or least insufficiency to it when you have access to records showing exactly which cards you've sold over the years were consigned to you by people you say you will no longer do business with because they're suspect, but you don't identify the cards and the burden is on the owner to figure out if they have an altered card or not.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, it's easy to offer a refund, but there's an element of disingenuousness or least insufficiency to it when you have access to records showing exactly which cards you've sold over the years were consigned to you by people you say you will no longer do business with because they're suspect, but you don't identify the cards and the burden is on the owner to figure out if they have an altered card or not.

Mostly searching their OWN records with serial numbered cards yielded this Information. It's a matter of time before this really grows legs, exposing the shill bidders/consignors, submitters, etc

[frankbmd]

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

[steve B]

That also need to be taken in context with the pop report numbers. only about 1% of what's been graded are 8s and up. And that's just among the ones that have been graded. If you figure there's still 3x as many ungraded, and that those are even more likely to be in low grade since they aren't really worth grading, (I never understood grading a card that's in bad shape, unless it has some other qualities that make it more valuable) And that the surviving cards are maybe 10% of what was made, the number with high grades just aren't really all that many.

I never asked, but I believe the only thing keeping the 7 I graded from being higher is the centering. I've had a few others done that I had big hopes for, that had small flaws I didn't see. (They still generally di pretty well. )

I don't doubt that some of the cards graded 8 and up are altered, but I do know that there are some cards that come pretty close that certainly aren't. And many of them got no special treatment or handling.

Originally Posted by benjulmag

My concern about the number of high-grade cards is not centered around 7's. It is centered around 8's - 10's. Even if a person in 1909 saw a card he/she really liked and wanted to preserve it, I would think simply taking it out of the cigarette box and transporting it to some storage box would cause enough damage to prevent it from being a true 9. And that assumes during the ensuing 100+ years no one took the card out of the box and handled it. As for 10's, no disrespect intended, but are you kidding?

Today when vintage packs are opened and cards are pulled, do you notice the care that is taken to do that? And we are to believe such care took place a century ago when cards had NO value? Don't take my word for it. Blow up the borders of vintage 10's. When I do I see shavings or uneven borders. And I'll wager that if there a difference between the chemical composition of untrimmed borders exposed to the elements for 100+ years and trimmed borders exposed to the elements for only a few years, which difference can be revealed by advanced forensic testing, all T206 10's would be shown to be altered.

I remember in the 1990's a respected old-time dealer displayed on his table altered cards, identified as such. To my eyes, they looked totally natural. That dealer displayed them to portend the future of the hobby. I believe he hit the nail on the head.