Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[benjulmag]

Peter,

I will never forget an encounter I had in the mid-80s with an experienced collector/dealer who was looking for a particular '33 Goudey card for his personal collection. He was a high grade collector. He finally found the card at a show that I attended and showed it me. I remember taking note that while the condition was very nice, it clearly looked like a card 50+ years old. In my mind it was an ex-mt plus to maybe as high as nr-mt. It was not higher, and that was based on the more lenient grading standards of that era. I remember at the time asking Alan Rosen if he could find me a very high grade '33 Goudey set (minus Lajoie) and what he would charge. After thinking for a moment he told me how difficult it would be to find such a set and how expensive it would be, but if he had one he would charge $4k.

That was the hobby then and what at least my expectations were as to what a high grade card would look like. Compare that to what one sees today at shows/auctions coupled with the tremendous price differential between grades and perhaps one can understand my skepticsm that such cards haven't been worked on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Peter,

I will never forget an encounter I had in the mid-80s with an experienced collector/dealer who was looking for a particular '33 Goudey card for his personal collection. He was a high grade collector. He finally found the card at a show that I attended and showed it me. I remember taking note that while the condition was very nice, it clearly looked like a card 50+ years old. In my mind it was an ex-mt plus to maybe as high as nr-mt. It was not higher, and that was based on the more lenient grading standards of that era. This was before the advent of grading and high prices. I remember at the time asking Alan Rosen if he could find me a very high grade '33 Goudey set (minus Lajoie) and what he would charge. After thinking for a moment he told me how difficult it would be to find such a set and how expensive it would be, but if he could he would charge $4k.

That was the hobby then and what at least my expectations were as to what a high grade card would looked like. Compare that to what one sees today at shows/auctions as long with the tremendous price differential between grades and perhaps one can understand my skepticsm that such cards haven't been worked on.

I had that conversation with Mike Wheat back in the 90s. He was baffled as to where all the high grade PSA prewar cards were coming from. He said he had handled countless thousands of cards and only on rare occasions had he seen cards as nice as the slabbed ones that seemed to be in abundance even then.

[barrysloate]

And yet nearly every time a high grade high demand card comes up at auction, it sets a new world record. It's a disconnect that no matter how many times we discuss it I just can't accept. Are the only people who recognize that something isn't right here the posters of Net54? Is everyone else oblivious?

[irv]

I've asked this question naively a few times how cards stayed so pristine that are 50 to 100+ yrs old, and although I have been told cigar boxes and in between pages of large books/encyclopedias, I have a hard time accepting the fact that so many back in the day were treated like this.

[Leon]

I am fairly positive some cards were kept pristine by being lost and/or not handled. However, I don't think that number scratches the surface of how many we see today. Apparently there are more high grade vintage cards being made every day.
IMO, There was no need to try to redefine what the hobby already accepts and doesn't accept, concerning alterations, and I told Brent that. He should also, immediately, distance himself from any known card doctors or trimmers (really from day one but it seems that ship has sailed). It is a shame too because I still feel PWCC is doing some great stuff that will help the hobby mature.
People have also taken a lot of things out of context. Brent feels trimming is bad. He feels flattening a card and trimming it is bad. He feels using a solvent is better than water as water can be more damaging, he states. I told him that the hobby has tacitly accepted water but nothing else. SO there you have it, a conversation that probably didn't need to happen but ...it has.

Originally Posted by irv

I've asked this question naively a few times how cards stayed so pristine that are 50 to 100+ yrs old, and although I have been told cigar boxes and in between pages of large books/encyclopedias, I have a hard time accepting the fact that so many back in the day were treated like this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am fairly positive some cards were kept pristine by being lost and/or not handled. However, I don't think that number scratches the surface of how many we see today. Apparently there are more high grade vintage cards being made every day.
IMO, There was no need to try to redefine what the hobby already accepts and doesn't accept, concerning alterations, and I told Brent that. He should also, immediately, distance himself from any known card doctors or trimmers (really from day one but it seems that ship has sailed). It is a shame too because I still feel PWCC is doing some great stuff that will help the hobby mature.
People have also taken a lot of things out of context. Brent feels trimming is bad. He feels flattening a card and trimming it is bad. He feels using a solvent is better than water as water can be more damaging, he states. I told him that the hobby has tacitly accepted water but nothing else. SO there you have it, a conversation that probably didn't need to happen but ...it has.

I hate to state the obvious, but if Brent felt all those things were bad, he would not be doing business with certain people with whom he is doing business. He surely knows what they do.

Let me state that more strongly. If Brent felt all those things were bad, he would have stopped doing business with certain people a long time ago. God knows he's been called out on it multiple times. But he didn't.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hate to state the obvious, but if Brent felt all those things were bad, he would not be doing business with certain people with whom he is doing business. He surely knows what they do.

Let me state that more strongly. If Brent felt all those things were bad, he would have stopped doing business with certain people a long time ago. God knows he's been called out on it multiple times. But he didn't.

Additionally, if Brent believed/thought these things...it'd be nice to hear it from him!

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hate to state the obvious, but if Brent felt all those things were bad, he would not be doing business with certain people with whom he is doing business. He surely knows what they do.

Let me state that more strongly. If Brent felt all those things were bad, he would have stopped doing business with certain people a long time ago. God knows he's been called out on it multiple times. But he didn't.

In my 3 rather short years here I have read numerous posts concerning PWCC.

I obviously don't know all the details involved or how many stories go back further than then, but from what I have personally read here alone is enough for me to steer clear of them. I am a low $$/profile collector so I know I am not missed one bit nor do I affect their bottom line but I believe, and have always believed, that dealing with questionable entities or people does nothing to make them change their behaviour.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And yet nearly every time a high grade high demand card comes up at auction, it sets a new world record. It's a disconnect that no matter how many times we discuss it I just can't accept. Are the only people who recognize that something isn't right here the posters of Net54? Is everyone else oblivious?

This is the human trait card doctors and their enablers have tapped into -- wishful thinking.

[barrysloate]

I guess I have different DNA, or something, because I have to be completely frank: I wouldn't touch that stuff. Recognizing I couldn't tell the difference between a genuine 8 and an altered 8, I'm running for the hills. To each his own.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I guess I have different DNA, or something, because I have to be completely frank: I wouldn't touch that stuff. Recognizing I couldn't tell the difference between a genuine 8 and an altered 8, I'm running for the hills. To each his own.

I sold my high grade prewar in the 90s -- just didn't trust it any more. Was seeing too much nonsense. 4s-6s work just fine. I probably should do the same with 50s and 60s, but I think I've deluded myself into thinking I have a pretty good eye.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Peter,

I will never forget an encounter I had in the mid-80s with an experienced collector/dealer who was looking for a particular '33 Goudey card for his personal collection. He was a high grade collector. He finally found the card at a show that I attended and showed it me. I remember taking note that while the condition was very nice, it clearly looked like a card 50+ years old. In my mind it was an ex-mt plus to maybe as high as nr-mt. It was not higher, and that was based on the more lenient grading standards of that era. I remember at the time asking Alan Rosen if he could find me a very high grade '33 Goudey set (minus Lajoie) and what he would charge. After thinking for a moment he told me how difficult it would be to find such a set and how expensive it would be, but if he had one he would charge $4k.

That was the hobby then and what at least my expectations were as to what a high grade card would looked like. Compare that to what one sees today at shows/auctions coupled with the tremendous price differential between grades and perhaps one can understand my skepticsm that such cards haven't been worked on.

I agree. I haven't ever been in a market for such cards but I have been attending shows since 1976 and I never, ever saw T206, Goudey and other prewar cards in the conditions we are seeing now, and I lingered over the eye candy at all of those shows. I don't think it is a N54 thing so much as it is a memory thing: those of us who were around the hobby 30+ years ago know how excruciatingly rare it was to find really nice prewar cards. Now there are literally tens of thousands of T206s in PSA 7 and better. Are we more aware of them due to the Internet, or are there just a lot more of them that there used to be? I don't know the answer but the situation stinks on ice.