Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[barrysloate]

And yet nearly every time a high grade high demand card comes up at auction, it sets a new world record. It's a disconnect that no matter how many times we discuss it I just can't accept. Are the only people who recognize that something isn't right here the posters of Net54? Is everyone else oblivious?

[irv]

I've asked this question naively a few times how cards stayed so pristine that are 50 to 100+ yrs old, and although I have been told cigar boxes and in between pages of large books/encyclopedias, I have a hard time accepting the fact that so many back in the day were treated like this.

[Leon]

I am fairly positive some cards were kept pristine by being lost and/or not handled. However, I don't think that number scratches the surface of how many we see today. Apparently there are more high grade vintage cards being made every day.
IMO, There was no need to try to redefine what the hobby already accepts and doesn't accept, concerning alterations, and I told Brent that. He should also, immediately, distance himself from any known card doctors or trimmers (really from day one but it seems that ship has sailed). It is a shame too because I still feel PWCC is doing some great stuff that will help the hobby mature.
People have also taken a lot of things out of context. Brent feels trimming is bad. He feels flattening a card and trimming it is bad. He feels using a solvent is better than water as water can be more damaging, he states. I told him that the hobby has tacitly accepted water but nothing else. SO there you have it, a conversation that probably didn't need to happen but ...it has.

Originally Posted by irv

I've asked this question naively a few times how cards stayed so pristine that are 50 to 100+ yrs old, and although I have been told cigar boxes and in between pages of large books/encyclopedias, I have a hard time accepting the fact that so many back in the day were treated like this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am fairly positive some cards were kept pristine by being lost and/or not handled. However, I don't think that number scratches the surface of how many we see today. Apparently there are more high grade vintage cards being made every day.
IMO, There was no need to try to redefine what the hobby already accepts and doesn't accept, concerning alterations, and I told Brent that. He should also, immediately, distance himself from any known card doctors or trimmers (really from day one but it seems that ship has sailed). It is a shame too because I still feel PWCC is doing some great stuff that will help the hobby mature.
People have also taken a lot of things out of context. Brent feels trimming is bad. He feels flattening a card and trimming it is bad. He feels using a solvent is better than water as water can be more damaging, he states. I told him that the hobby has tacitly accepted water but nothing else. SO there you have it, a conversation that probably didn't need to happen but ...it has.

I hate to state the obvious, but if Brent felt all those things were bad, he would not be doing business with certain people with whom he is doing business. He surely knows what they do.

Let me state that more strongly. If Brent felt all those things were bad, he would have stopped doing business with certain people a long time ago. God knows he's been called out on it multiple times. But he didn't.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hate to state the obvious, but if Brent felt all those things were bad, he would not be doing business with certain people with whom he is doing business. He surely knows what they do.

Let me state that more strongly. If Brent felt all those things were bad, he would have stopped doing business with certain people a long time ago. God knows he's been called out on it multiple times. But he didn't.

Additionally, if Brent believed/thought these things...it'd be nice to hear it from him!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Additionally, if Brent believed/thought these things...it'd be nice to hear it from him!

Were I he, at this point, I would keep quiet. He only makes his case worse with the spin he tries to put on things that people see through.

To be clear, altered cards are so rampant that they probably infect everyone. If you inadvertently sell some, well, it sucks but I wouldn't blame you. But it's something else to knowingly accept cards from people who you know or have strong reason to believe are doing the altering. And in my opinion and to some extent knowledge, many sellers are doing just that and have been. There are people who would excuse that on the basis that the card is slabbed, so it's all PSA's fault, but I don't buy that for a minute.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Were I he, at this point, I would keep quiet. He only makes his case worse with the spin he tries to put on things that people see through.

To be clear, altered cards are so rampant that they probably infect everyone. If you inadvertently sell some, well, it sucks but I wouldn't blame you. But it's something else to knowingly accept cards from people who you know or have strong reason to believe are doing the altering. And in my opinion and to some extent knowledge, many sellers are doing just that and have been. There are people who would excuse that on the basis that the card is slabbed, so it's all PSA's fault, but I don't buy that for a minute.

does it really matter where the spin comes from?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hate to state the obvious, but if Brent felt all those things were bad, he would not be doing business with certain people with whom he is doing business. He surely knows what they do.

Let me state that more strongly. If Brent felt all those things were bad, he would have stopped doing business with certain people a long time ago. God knows he's been called out on it multiple times. But he didn't.

In my 3 rather short years here I have read numerous posts concerning PWCC.

I obviously don't know all the details involved or how many stories go back further than then, but from what I have personally read here alone is enough for me to steer clear of them. I am a low $$/profile collector so I know I am not missed one bit nor do I affect their bottom line but I believe, and have always believed, that dealing with questionable entities or people does nothing to make them change their behaviour.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And yet nearly every time a high grade high demand card comes up at auction, it sets a new world record. It's a disconnect that no matter how many times we discuss it I just can't accept. Are the only people who recognize that something isn't right here the posters of Net54? Is everyone else oblivious?

This is the human trait card doctors and their enablers have tapped into -- wishful thinking.

[barrysloate]

I guess I have different DNA, or something, because I have to be completely frank: I wouldn't touch that stuff. Recognizing I couldn't tell the difference between a genuine 8 and an altered 8, I'm running for the hills. To each his own.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I guess I have different DNA, or something, because I have to be completely frank: I wouldn't touch that stuff. Recognizing I couldn't tell the difference between a genuine 8 and an altered 8, I'm running for the hills. To each his own.

I sold my high grade prewar in the 90s -- just didn't trust it any more. Was seeing too much nonsense. 4s-6s work just fine. I probably should do the same with 50s and 60s, but I think I've deluded myself into thinking I have a pretty good eye.