Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

Peter_Spaeth · #1 05-13-2019, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

That one would be a turkey shoot. If it is not enough the person who trimmed the card admitted such, which contributed to him being sentenced to prison, you have (i) existent before and after photos of the card, and (ii) physical characteristics of the borders than when enlarged would be substantially identical to countless cards slabbed "A".

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

benjulmag · #2 05-13-2019, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

So if someone has uncut N, T, E and/or R sheets that if cut could produce "10s" of vintage superstars, is because of that a person a multi-millionaire? I'm doubtful.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 05-13-2019, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

So if someone has uncut N, T, E and/or R sheets that if cut could produce "10s" of vintage superstars, is because of that a person a multi-millionaire? I'm doubtful.

I don't follow, sorry. My point, I think, is that the bigger problem with the card is not that it's trimmed but that it's sheet cut to begin with so never could have graded properly. Everyone focuses on the trimming though.

benjulmag · #4 05-13-2019, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't follow, sorry. My point, I think, is that the bigger problem with the card is not that it's trimmed but that it's sheet cut to begin with so never could have graded properly. Everyone focuses on the trimming though.

It was post-issue sheet cut, believed to be in the 1980's. There are other known cards cut from that same sheet with similar cut and coloration. Therefore to some because it was recently sheet cut, the fact that the initial cutting did not do it perfectly means that a subsequent cutting should not cause an "A" grade. So by that line of reasoning, sheet-cut cards can potentially receive unqualified "10" grades.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 05-13-2019, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It was post-issue sheet cut, believed to be in the 1980's. There are other known cards cut from that same sheet with similar cut and coloration. Therefore to some because it was recently sheet cut, the fact that the initial cutting did not do it perfectly means that a subsequent cutting should not cause an "A" grade. So by that line of reasoning, sheet-cut cards can potentially receive unqualified "10" grades.

If you walked into PSA with a card and said this was cut from a sheet in the 1980s, they wouldn't grade it, would they? I thought Beckett caught lots of grief for doing that for certain sheet cutters who couldn't get the cards past PSA.

benjulmag · #6 05-13-2019, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you walked into PSA with a card and said this was cut from a sheet in the 1980s, they wouldn't grade it, would they?

To my knowledge they would not. Welcome to the absurdity.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 05-13-2019, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

To my knowledge they would not. Welcome to the absurdity.

So my point stands, PSA screwed up for two reasons, the first of which (that the card was sheet cut) was a non-starter. The trim by Mastro is really a secondary issue. Had he not trimmed it, it still was not gradable.

steve B · #8 05-14-2019, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

I've never liked the "sheet cut " term. All individual cards are cut from sheets.

peterose4hof · #9 05-14-2019, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

I've never liked the "sheet cut " term. All individual cards are cut from sheets.

Perhaps "Post-Factory Cut" would be more accurate, "Sheet Cut" has been the industry standard term for cards cut from a sheet outside of the factory for many, many years now though.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 05-14-2019, 09:45 AM

Regardless of the term used, and i agree with both of you, I don't know why this doesn't seem to have been more a focal point of discussion concerning the Wagner card. If I am correct on my facts, the card was never better than an AUTH.

steve B · #11 05-14-2019, 10:04 AM

I think it's easier for people to get their heads around it being a simple trim, than the odd distinction of having been cut twice after leaving the factory.
There may also be a small bit of selective ignoring. I don't like to consider whether it was a complete sheet, or only a portion, and what was lost in the cutting. I do sometimes, but I can see someone else simply refusing the concept to avoid considering it.

I do hope that someone somewhere along the line took a picture of the uncut sheet/fragment and that it will someday turn up.
Alternately, learning that it was a scrap sheet brought home or found in ALCs trash and cut by some kid at the time would be nice.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 05-14-2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

I think it's easier for people to get their heads around it being a simple trim, than the odd distinction of having been cut twice after leaving the factory.
There may also be a small bit of selective ignoring. I don't like to consider whether it was a complete sheet, or only a portion, and what was lost in the cutting. I do sometimes, but I can see someone else simply refusing the concept to avoid considering it.

I do hope that someone somewhere along the line took a picture of the uncut sheet/fragment and that it will someday turn up.
Alternately, learning that it was a scrap sheet brought home or found in ALCs trash and cut by some kid at the time would be nice.

I thought we knew a Plank was cut from the same sheet which implied to me there was a picture of it or at least an eyewitness account? Or did Alan Ray just have the Plank as well as the Wagner so it's an assumption?

benjulmag · #13 05-14-2019, 11:13 AM

From what I heard, there were other cards Ray had besides Plank and Wagner that presumably came from the same sheet. I have never heard of the existence of an image of the sheet before it was cut. There is a photocopy of the Wagner card as it looked when Ray sold it. I had a copy but when I last looked couldn't find it. I don't recall it being grainy, and I clearly recall a bow shape on I believe was the right border that is no longer there. So unless someone is to argue that image depicts a different card (which would not be a credible argument), IMO the card can conclusively be determined to have been trimmed. Then one can add to this evidence the admission by the trimmer, as well as borders that have the physical characteristics of a trimmed card.

As I said earlier, the fact that that is the cover card of the hobby and is listed in the registry as an 8 Wagner says all one needs to say about the real world of this hobby, as well as the notion that a high number grade on a tobacco or similar vintage card can be relied on to bear any correlation to the true condition of the card.

I will add, and this is from the perspective of a person who attended card shows in the late 60s and early 70s, that I have no recollection of seeing anywhere close to the number of high grade tobacco cards one sees at current shows.

Finally, simple common sense at least to me screams out how unrealistic is the idea that a card 110 years old issued as an insert in a tobacco box in an era when it was likely much more difficult to properly preserve paper items could possibly have survived as a10 (or maybe even a 9) today.

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