Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Perhaps his signature on peace treaties were forgeries.

Brian

Any signature of Hitler on a "Peace" Treaty would definitely be a forgery.

Although you may find Himmler's John Hancock on a peace treaty, or an attempt at one. Although Churchill rejected it. Thus became the first known case of a TPA rejecting a signature.

[WillowGrove]

Okay that was great. So well done Dave thank you. Feller line, Flick/father were funny enough but the Moe Berg line at end? Perfect.

A necessary respite in this heavy thread.

[Lordstan]

I am not sure what is funnier, that video or Paul's new name tags.

[Pat R]

Here's the Cicotte sale to the same buyer in June 2016.

Cicotte Sale.jpg

[Cooptown]

Another article about the great work being done here:https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ar-autographs/

[Republicaninmass]

Hey Pat, is this N***e different than the f***f buyer? I'm sure it's the same group or user, but curious to see if it is 2 separate IDs

[ALBB]

When are we gonna start digging into the autographed Goudey stuff ?
If the T 206 were discovered fakes with just a little effort..I wonder how many autographed Goudey cards will turn up ? ...and quite quickly too

[JoeRand]

This is fantastic!

[DaveW]

Nice job on the video! Very creative and hits a bit too close to home.

[setwil]

Agree this is very sad to see fraud at such a scale.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[painthistorian]

To answer a specific question that came up...the same buyer on e bay that has been pointed out by Pat R. to be the buyer of the Cicotte and the buyer that purchased the Baker I sold, changed his ID, early March 2015, I saw this change in the e bay history back screens. E bay does keep the accounts together but the letter*****letter coded sequence will be different but the feedback is the same..funny, his feedback just went up one which means there is still feedback being left although there are no longer current listings.

[Pat R]

The Marquard is actually a different ebay ID. I think the rest are all the
same buyer but I will have to go back and get the sales. I think it actually
might be unrelated to the rest of them.

These are the pre signed sales from the same buyer that I have at this time.

Baker Sale.jpg
Cicotte Sale.jpg
Flick Sale.jpg
Livingstone Sale.jpg
Parent Sale.jpg
Sullivan Sale.jpg

[egri]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Any signature of Hitler on a "Peace" Treaty would definitely be a forgery.

You won't find Hitler on a "Peace" treaty, but he is plentiful on "Piece" treaties; he got a piece of Czechoslovakia, a piece of Poland, a piece of France, a piece of Austria. But beware of his signature on a piece treaty with Russia; that is definitely bogus.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The Marquard is actually a different ebay ID. I think the rest are all the
same buyer but I will have to go back and get the sales. I think it actually
might be unrelated to the rest of them.

These are the pre signed sales from the same buyer that I have at this time.

Attachment 336187
Attachment 336188
Attachment 336189
Attachment 336190
Attachment 336191
Attachment 336192

Sorry if this has been asked already, but is there anyway to tell if this buyer purchased different cards other than T206's?

[ashes13]

Where there is smoke there is fire. If it is this easy to get forged t206 autographs by all the supposed expert authenticators out there, it is likely going on with not just pre-war cards but also all cards and probably all memorabilia. Seems to be alot of hall of fame signed rookie cards being sold over the last few years, such as Mantles, Aarons, etc. They were never that popular but somehow they have become quite prevalent. Also, as alluded to earlier, seems like a lot more signed goudeys have been popping up. The whole "signed" card popularity seemed to have taken off a few years ago and it probably coincides with this perhaps "group" of forgers (perhaps it is one forger but wouldn't surprise me if multiple people are involved). They may even have been the driving force behind trying to pique interest in this niche area and grow its popularity. I just never recall seeing so many signed cards in the big auctions before nor were they very popular.

We are all collectors and this is never good to see. As purely a card collector, I never really got into autograph collecting and as a card purist always preferred cards without markings or autos, but I can see the allure to the autograph enthusiasts of signed classic hobby cards.

Seems like fake autographs have a long sordid history in this hobby.

But it is definitely reassuring that there are so many smart and amazing collectors out there and on these message boards that are able to "police" the hobby and expose these frauds.

[alywa]

The video is simply priceless. Thank you

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by irv

Sorry if this has been asked already, but is there anyway to tell if this buyer purchased different cards other than T206's?

I haven't found where he has purchased any other pre-war cards
besides T206's.

[Daveyc]

I know that PSA will guarantee their grades as far as, If a card is deemed overgraded or not authentic, PSA will either pay the difference in the case of an over grade, or buy it back in the case of an not authentic card.

Does SGC offer a similar guarantee? Wasnt there much speculation about the gretzky Wagner and if the owner would take advantage of the PSA guarantee to the tune of 2.8 million?

[ALBB]

Im looking at an awful lot of 30s cards that were autographed , especially 1933 Goudey and trying to back- track to find that identical card un-autographed

[charrigan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Hmmm, I guess SGC stands for Sacred Grading Cow. Didn't they slab 8 of these before going to auction? PSA slabbed 1. Reminds me of the old NCAA joke headline: "UNC cited for 100 recruiting violations: UNC-Greensboro being put on probation."

cosigned

[Exhibitman]

What is this alleged forger, Lord Voldemort? Out with the name already!

[RedsFan1941]

waiting to announce because amazon hasn't yet delivered the net54 double order of tar and feathers

[trdcrdkid]

[hcv123]

I know the focus has been T206. I was the under bidder on this - Never pursued auto's, but bid on a few in the most recent REA sale - won a couple of 33 Goudey's. Thoughts or history on this 1 of 1 - seems too good to be true.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=53252

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

waiting to announce because amazon hasn't yet delivered the net54 double order of tar and feathers

That's BS, the tracking shows delivered.

[Orioles1954]

This was owned by a member of the board who's had it for at least 10 years. I think it looks good.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

waiting to announce because amazon hasn't yet delivered the net54 double order of tar and feathers

Because we can all agree that scammers/forgers are a great asset to the hobby and don't deserved to be tarred and feathered?

[RedsFan1941]

because we all agree getting your pound of flesh should be the no.1 priority? as has been posted by more than one person, relax, you will have plenty of time to cast stones. it sounds like more important work needs to be done first.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I know the focus has been T206. I was the under bidder on this - Never pursued auto's, but bid on a few in the most recent REA sale - won a couple of 33 Goudey's. Thoughts or history on this 1 of 1 - seems too good to be true.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=53252

I believe the T207 was in a large lot Phil Marks uncovered many years ago. 100% good if it's the case

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I believe the T207 was in a large lot Phil Marks uncovered many years ago. 100% good if it's the case

FWIW - The first time I ever saw that card was on June 24, 2008 on the Full Count boards. It was posted by Chris Bland. Pretty sure he had it until it was just sold.

[Jasonxmay]

I purchased it from Chris Bland last year and consigned it to REA. FWIW, I lost money on that one. I think the high bidder got a great deal.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

FWIW - The first time I ever saw that card was on June 24, 2008 on the Full Count boards. It was posted by Chris Bland. Pretty sure he had it until it was just sold.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

because we all agree getting your pound of flesh should be the no.1 priority? as has been posted by more than one person, relax, you will have plenty of time to cast stones. it sounds like more important work needs to be done first.

A voice of reason. If authorities and others weren't already working on this the name would have been revealed already. And any lawyer saying to out the person, knowing the authorities would rather it not be done yet, should know better.

[milkit1]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

FWIW - The first time I ever saw that card was on June 24, 2008 on the Full Count boards. It was posted by Chris Bland. Pretty sure he had it until it was just sold.

That card was at the 2006 National. Price: $250
Those were the days

[irv]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I haven't found where he has purchased any other pre-war cards besides T206's.

That is good to know.

Thanks.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

A voice of reason. If authorities and others weren't already working on this the name would have been revealed already. And any lawyer saying to out the person, knowing the authorities would rather it not be done yet, should know better.

This urge towards self-important secrecy with every bit of information is an unfortunate ongoing theme in this hobby. I have never even bid on a signed T206, don't have any, and thus have no stake in whether or not Paddy Livingston (whoever that was) signed a T206. But when it comes to exposing crooks, I believe as Justice Brandeis did:

"Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."

I notice that reporting on crime in newspapers often speeds up the prosecution of crime. Publicizing the name(s) does not affect an investigation into past crimes one iota: the crimes are already completed and the records of them that are likely recoverable from third parties (like AH consignment records) are already in existence. What it might do is prevent someone from getting ripped off. For example, if the info is out there that Joe Shlabotnick is the person who bought the cards under eBay ID "Ohio Forger" then everyone with eBay inventory can block him. Whatever we can do to cut off and frustrate the crooks is a good thing and it starts with information. We ought to be focused on what might protect the most collectors from further scamming ASAP rather than playing Jr. G-Man, and IMO that is maximum exposure of the culprit(s).

But that's just my opinion; reasonable minds may differ.

[uniship]

I agree with everything you just wrote. Releasing the name of the culprit ASAP would help protect this community (and the public).

[Leon]

I am doing what I was told would help the most. IF you don't like that I really can't help you. That said, I will check into how law enforcement is doing on this today. If it is business as usual, which isn't that good from my experiences, then I will release the name. If it is going somewhere then I might not reveal it. I only have marginal confidence in authorities working in our hobby due to their lack of being able to take cases to help protect us.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This urge towards self-important secrecy with every bit of information is an unfortunate ongoing theme in this hobby. I have never even bid on a signed T206, don't have any, and thus have no stake in whether or not Paddy Livingston (whoever that was) signed a T206. But when it comes to exposing crooks, I believe as Justice Brandeis did:

"Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."

I notice that reporting on crime in newspapers often speeds up the prosecution of crime. Publicizing the name(s) does not affect an investigation into past crimes one iota: the crimes are already completed and the records of them that are likely recoverable from third parties (like AH consignment records) are already in existence. What it might do is prevent someone from getting ripped off. For example, if the info is out there that Joe Shlabotnick is the person who bought the cards under eBay ID "Ohio Forger" then everyone with eBay inventory can block him. Whatever we can do to cut off and frustrate the crooks is a good thing and it starts with information. We ought to be focused on what might protect the most collectors from further scamming ASAP rather than playing Jr. G-Man, and IMO that is maximum exposure of the culprit(s).

But that's just my opinion; reasonable minds may differ.

[felada]

Presumable the forger(s) know about this thread by now so I doubt their fraud is still ongoing. However, releasing the name(s) may help uncover more fraud. Once the name(s) are posted it is pretty easy for everyone to go back and search prior transactions. Much easier than searching thousands of closed auctions and trying to match up creases and print marks.

[Laxcat]

Name? No name? Same difference. My pitchfork is getting sharpened either way.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Sorry guys, couldn't help myself. Some mildly NSFW language and probably not the classiest thing I've ever done.

Sorry, couldn't figure out how to upload this to Youtube and keep the captions.


http://captiongenerator.com/1198202/...raphed-Mystery

This is grade A stuff. The Bob Feller, Max Schmelling, and Elmer Flick lines are inspired, and I couldn't help smiling at "gottamn."

[Bpm0014]

However, releasing the name(s) may help uncover more fraud. Once the name(s) are posted it is pretty easy for everyone to go back and search prior transactions.

EXACTLY, THANK YOU!

[jad22]

Any updates?

[vintagewhitesox]

http://captiongenerator.com/1198202/...raphed-Mystery

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

http://captiongenerator.com/1198202/...raphed-Mystery

Are you just reposting the same video that was captioned by D. Bergin? Or did you add more captions?

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Sorry guys, couldn't help myself. Some mildly NSFW language and probably not the classiest thing I've ever done.

Sorry, couldn't figure out how to upload this to Youtube and keep the captions.


http://captiongenerator.com/1198202/...raphed-Mystery

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by milkit1

That card was at the 2006 National. Price: $250
Those were the days

I bought it from Phil Marks at that show for $200. I am not sure of the provenance prior to that but I never had any reason to suspect it wasn't legit.

[The Nasty Nati]

This like waiting for Game of Thrones to come back.

Any news? Any new forgeries? There has to be some Goudeys and Exhibits that we can find.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Is there no way to tell the difference from ink that's been on a card for 30-50 years, or more, and a card that's been signed in the last 5 or 10?

This is precisely the point. There is a way to tell, or there should be - based on the TPG's passing themselves off as "experts." The expertise is the fraud. Just like when David Hall's defense of PSA giving the Gretzky Wagner an 8 was "It doesn't look trimmed to me." What? That's Joe Blow the ripoff guy at your LCS's line, not what you would expect to hear from a supposed "expert" in his field. Well David - what about the cardboard's specific qualities lead you to believe it was not trimmed? What do your years of study of different paper fibers and their aging properties tell you? It's much the same with autograph authentication. The fact of the matter is, while nominally grading of any type (authentication, 1-10, autos...) is "helpful" when buying cards sight unseen, none of it is anywhere near an exact science, and what is far too often overlooked was the hype and marketing drive which led to a company like PSA being able to grow to the size that it is. I think the well-known parties involved in this latest thing w/ the T206's should all have to pay a hefty price in terms of their reputations.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

This is precisely the point. There is a way to tell, or there should be - based on the TPG's passing themselves off as "experts." The expertise is the fraud. Just like when David Hall's defense of PSA giving the Gretzky Wagner an 8 was "It doesn't look trimmed to me." What? That's Joe Blow the ripoff guy at your LCS's line, not what you would expect to hear from a supposed "expert" in his field. Well David - what about the cardboard's specific qualities lead you to believe it was not trimmed? What do your years of study of different paper fibers and their aging properties tell you? It's much the same with autograph authentication. The fact of the matter is, while nominally grading of any type (authentication, 1-10, autos...) is "helpful" when buying cards sight unseen, none of it is anywhere near an exact science, and what is far too often overlooked was the hype and marketing drive which led to a company like PSA being able to grow to the size that it is. I think the well-known parties involved in this latest thing w/ the T206's should all have to pay a hefty price in terms of their reputations.

This is a great point...what "expertise" does PSA even offer to justify the prices their graded cards command? Not much from what I see. Perhaps 60 minutes or halls of shame should investigate this!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This is a great point...what "expertise" does PSA even offer to justify the prices their graded cards command? Not much from what I see. Perhaps 60 minutes or halls of shame should investigate this!

All that the vast majority of collectors care about is did their card get the grade they were after, does this high-grade card that they just spent a lot of money on "fit" the grade it was assigned once in-hand, was their auto deemed authentic, etc. etc. This is because (in PSA's example...) despite the boner with the first card they ever graded (the Wagner) - they ARE recognized as an industry leader and something that you can more or less hang your hat on. I'm just as guilty as the rest of you, I sleep way better at night knowing that whatever card is on it's way to me from eBay land was graded PSA X and there is a high chance it will be a good fit in my collection, that I didn't overspend on it, and not something with a hidden crease, hard to detect doctoring, or some other undisclosed flaw. But you are right, nobody ever asks the question who is doing the grading, what is their training and experience? Is it sports collectables experts who know a lot about cards and the common types of altering and damage? Or some college kids on summer vacation who can be shown a basic scale and be more or less "trained" to do the job in a day or so? Don't misread - I don't think it HAS to be someone with a Ph.D. in paper conservancey, or someone who knew the precise patterns of how paper cutters worked in the American Tobacco factories in Virginia at the turn of the last century. But it is true that at least on some level - starting in the early days of PSA and continuing up until now - they bill themselves as "experts" and generally get by with that without incurring much scrutiny. Today, someone like David Hall or Joe Orlando can look at you with as straight face and say, "Well, we are the experts becacuse we have graded 90 zillion cards since 1996..." That may be true. But they also make plenty of mistakes and nobody seems to care - why, what made you guys "experts" when you had not yet graded a single card? It's a fair question. Collectors Universe I believe came later; Mr. Hall had been in the business of grading coins. Now suddenly they are experts in 100 year old pieces of cardboard? Ok, there may be stranger things in the world - but the point is that nobody asks the question.

A random aside that doesn't really fit in anywhere else - what has always intrigued me is comic book grading. How do you become an expert at THAT? In theory it's similar to cards, but man how many pages are in one comic book? If you take some of the hysteria / extreme measures that are starting to be applied to sports card grading, how long would it take to do that with an entire comic book? Um, we'll have this back to you next year. Wait...is PSA already in this business? ;-)

[sushihotwings]

Hoping to see identifying information soon of the fraudster such as an EBay iD,name, address etc. Would hate to see new victims with ongoing forgeries while waiting for a name. Releasing this information in fact would help others to identify potential fakes in their collections bolstering a prosecution case while allowing them also to take action sooner in particular with EBay, PayPal return deadlines ticking. I would be very surprised if the scope was limited to T206 cards. I don’t really see how withholding this information would be beneficial unless he/she is an international flight risk.

David L@mont