Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Are people selling clean Uzits for only 2k? If so, please send me their info.

If you're talking about commons in the PSA/SGC 2-3 range, for example...I think you're looking at 3k+ actually.

Luke- weigh in.

SMR for Uzits SMR for Drums
PSA 2 2250.......5000
PSA 3 3200.......7000
PSA 4 4200.......8500

I have seen clean Uzits sell for +/- 2k. I collect by the back not the grade. So there are PSA 2 or SGC 3 cards that I don't want, but there might be a 1.5 or even A, if the back is nice, that I want. I can send those that i don't want your way if I see them, but if you want nice backs, I am your competition. Most likely these cards are going to be in a public auction anyways.

[Pat R]

I think this was a sleeper lot and someone got a really good deal.
No hall of famers but some pretty nice examples mostly in vg
at less than $850 a card.


https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=3717

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I think this was a sleeper lot and someone got a really good deal.
No hall of famers but some pretty nice examples mostly in vg
at less than $850 a card.


https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=3717

YAH...12 years ago!!!! I also believe uzits to be easier than bl460 and drum...but which of those 2 is tougher...i dunno??

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

YAH...12 years ago!!!! I also believe uzits to be easier than bl460 and drum...but which of those 2 is tougher...i dunno??

You're right Pete I misread the date but still a decent price I think
even back then.

[Luke]

Great discussion. I think Uzits are available for $2k the same way Drums are available for $5k. If one shows up at that price, whichever one of us who sees it first is going to snap it up. I feel the same about Uzits being under-valued compared to Drums. The last few months probably have been an anomaly with regard to how many Units have shown up for sale. The Hummel was new to the hobby, as were the two that I got from eBay. Could be a little while before we see another Drum or Uzit sell.

[MVSNYC]

Rats60- you're correct, we have lots of competition, everyone wants nice examples.

I know who won that REA lot...yeah, he did well. happy for him.

[scottglevy]

I’ll limit my comments to the glorious period of time from the early 1980s to the mid 1990s. During that time my dad and I had the amazing experience of buying several complete or near complete T206 sets and many thousands of other T206 cards in raw lots ranging from a few dozen to several hundred. In all, we’ve probably owned at least 5k - maybe even close to 10k T206s at some point - although never at the same time. It sounds impossible now, but at one point average cards cost $1 and even Cobb was under $50.

During those earlier years, many folks didn’t know much or care much about the backs - especially when you purchased a set or a large lot of cards.

I can say that Dad or I never found a raw Cobb/Cobb, Brown Lenox, BL460 or drum. While this is a small sample, it’s interesting to note the tougher backs that we’ve found as.
1 brown old mill (probably shouldn’t count this as I saw the image before I bought the lot)
2 Red Hindu
3 Uzits (one was on a Cobb batting!!)
And at least 3 of all other back varieties (although Black Lenox, BL350, P42 and Carolina Brights were all probably on “close to 5” end of things).

I’m not suggesting from my small sample that we should re-rank rarity, however, it is interesting that I never came across drum or BL460 - and I very rarely even saw them in the raw collections that we didn’t get a chance to buy (in fact, I NEVER saw a BL460 in a raw collection - except for one time, where the seller explicitly knew it was there and made sure to say as much.

[barrysloate]

Hi Scott- 5,000-10,000 cards is not a small sample IMO. I think that's a large enough number to make a lot of determinations regarding what is scarce and what is not.

I also probably handled somewhere around 10,000 T206, some unsearched from original collections, and some bought at auction which were likely cherrypicked. As I said on a different thread, I once bought an original collection with two Drums, but that was by far an outlier. Virtually all original collections I bought did not have rare backs in them.

But I also remember how inexpensive those backs were in the 80's and 90's. When I had Drums and Uzits I might get $125-150 each for them. I also remember Brown Hindus got a small premium over a common. So if commons were $15 I would sell a BH for $25. It's comical looking back how affordable this stuff once was. But it won't be ever again.

[tedzan]

I've kept a few of my UZIT's....and, in the past 10 years I have sold these......


Sold for $2900 (2017)
.




Sold for $5925 (consigned to REA 2013....this Herzog / UZIT is the only one known)






Cash/trade deal....$1200 + $500 value in trade (2012)
.




Sold for $1650 (2008)




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RedsFan1941]

how many broad leaf 460’s have you had/sold over the years Ted?

[Leon]

Just by thinking about how many I have seen I would say there are more Uzits.

[tedzan]

Hey guys

Of course we've seen more UZIT cards than BROAD LEAF 460 cards. The numbers favor this observation.
More than twice as many UZIT subjects have been confirmed than BROAD LEAF 460 subjects.
However, the scarcity factor of these two backs is very close.


.......... 28 confirmed out of a possible 35 printed

........ 58 confirmed out of a possible 74 printed




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[sb1]

The nicest Uzit's and BL 460 I have left. I have owned about an equal amount, at one time I had 5 BL 460's but that was because I pursued them. The BL 460 is quite a bit tougher than the Uzit in my opinion, about 2-1 Uzit's for BL 460 as the population reflects. Still Drum is much more popular and probably about as tough as BL 460 as they seem to not get resold. Both Drum and BL 460 are notoriously difficult to find centered on the back as well.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys

Of course we've seen more UZIT cards than BROAD LEAF 460 cards. The numbers favor this observation.
More than twice as many UZIT subjects have been confirmed than BROAD LEAF 460 subjects.
However, the scarcity factor of these two backs is very close.


.......... 28 confirmed out of a possible 35 printed

........ 58 confirmed out of a possible 74 printed




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, I think Jay touched on this in his post using the pop reports and
confirmed subjects for each back.

I know using the pop reports won't be a completely accurate number because
of the crossovers, crack outs ect... but I think between the two backs they
would be close enough to give a general idea.

Uzit = SGC 119 PSA 143 Total 262 @ 58 subjects = 4.51
Broad Leaf 460 SGC 46 PSA 37 Total 83 @ 28 subjects = 2.96

If you go by these numbers the BL460's would be 41.49% scarcer
than Uzit.

[Sean]

Regarding PSA pop reports: I think that PSA understates BL460s because for some reason they didn't distinguish between 350s and 460s in their pop reports for some time. I began a thread in 2013 about why there were only 350s in their pop reports. It turns out that PSA separated them on flips into 1910s and 1911s, but listed them all in the pop reports as BL350s.

I don't know when they broke out 460s as a separate group. I also don't know if they went back and corrected their pop reports, or only listed BL460s going forward from that point. If they only listed them going forward from the time they separated them in the reports, that would cause the numbers to be under reported.

I'm bad with links, so I'll just bump that old thread to the front page.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I think Jay touched on this in his post using the pop reports and
confirmed subjects for each back.

I know using the pop reports won't be a completely accurate number because
of the crossovers, crack outs ect... but I think between the two backs they
would be close enough to give a general idea.

Uzit = SGC 119 PSA 143 Total 262 @ 58 subjects = 4.51
Broad Leaf 460 SGC 46 PSA 37 Total 83 @ 28 subjects = 2.96

If you go by these numbers the BL460's would be 41.49% scarcer
than Uzit.

I don't agree with that the "262" number regarding actual UZIT cards. The real number is considerably less than 262, as UZIT's have been re-graded (or crossed-over) often.
If I can account for 2 re-grades in the Pop reports, you can bet that there are many, many more. Pop report data (PSA & SGC) regarding UZIT's is misleading as it lists many
more cards than actually exist in the real world. This kind of data skews any scarcity factor calculation when comparing these two rare backs.

The BROAD LEAF 460 Pop report data is less affected by this overstating problem, since many of the BL 460 cards are unique (1/1). Furthermore, we really do not know how
many BL 460 cards are in circulation, since PSA did not identify BL 460 cards for many years. Therefore, the PSA Pop report data on BL 460 cards is incomplete.

My opinion, after chasing UZIT's & BL 460's (amid many other tough T206 backs) for 35 years, is that these 2 scarce backs are equally rare with BL 460 having a slight edge.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I don't agree with that the "262" number regarding actual UZIT cards. The real number is considerably less than 262, as UZIT's have been re-graded (or crossed-over) often.
If I can account for 2 re-grades in the Pop reports, you can bet that there are many, many more. Pop report data (PSA & SGC) regarding UZIT's is misleading as it lists many
more cards than actually exist in the real world. This kind of data skews any scarcity factor calculation when comparing these two rare backs.

The BROAD LEAF 460 Pop report data is less affected by this overstating problem, since many of the BL 460 cards are unique (1/1). Furthermore, we really do not know how
many BL 460 cards are in circulation, since PSA did not identify BL 460 cards for many years. Therefore, the PSA Pop report data on BL 460 cards is incomplete.

My opinion, after chasing UZIT's & BL 460's (amid many other tough T206 backs) for 35 years, is that these 2 scarce backs are equally rare with BL 460 having a slight edge.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Well at least we agree on something Ted. I don't think the 262 number for
the Uzit's is accurate either. I took the actual numbers from the pop reports
because just like the Uzit's there are crossovers with the BL460's too and I
think % wise with two rare backs like these the number of crossovers
would be close.

The recently discovered Cobb that sold this spring was crossed over
already and SGC still lists two 1/10's in their pop reports.
Cobb Broadleaf 460 SGC.jpgCobb Broadleaf 460 PSA.jpg

Here's a Rucker that was crossed.
Rucker BL460.jpg

and how many of the SGC's that were 1/1's do you think David Hall picked up
for his master set that are now in PSA holders but still in SGC's pop reports?


For as long as I can remember PSA had the Broad Leaf 460's in their
pop reports they just didn't have them separated from the 350's.

Here's an old pop report from early 2012 and they're in it 16-138 are BL460's
PSA BL pops 1 - Copy.jpg
PSA BL pops 2 - Copy.jpg
PSA BL pops 3 - Copy.jpg

[Rhotchkiss]

Scott, those are great looking cards. I think I saw the BL 460 at the National (I am the dude who bought the E107 Plank). Put the BL 460 in your next auction!

[Baseballcrazy62]

Just a quick question from a relative newcomer to collecting tobacco era cards. Is there a reason no one mentions Beckett’s pop reports? Seems that PSA and SGC are always quoted as sources but never Beckett. Just wondering.

[t206kid]

I of course agree that the pop reports are not the end all be all given cross overs and failure to denote proper back or card variation. But pointing out one-off errors I believe is unhelpful given the magnitude of the pop reports as a data tool. Comparing what the pop report lists for both Uzits and BL460s is going to have a margin of error, but is a useful comparative tool which is what I was getting at here:

Uzit = SGC 119 PSA 143 Total 262 @ 58 subjects = 4.51
Broad Leaf 460 SGC 46 PSA 37 Total 83 @ 28 subjects = 2.96

This ~40% difference in scarcity is a pretty big difference to just quickly explain away and conclude that they're pretty similar.

[Luke]

I agree with Jay. There are going to be cross-over duplications in both the Uzit and BL460 Pop Reports. There's no reason to assume that one of the two backs would have more phantom cards in the report than the other.

There are only a handful of players who have a BL350 and a confirmed BL460. So if PSA gave a generic label to a BL460, we are talking about only a few possible cards. Here are the confirmed BL460 players who also have a pose that was printed with BL350 back:

-Doolan
-Downey
-Snodgrass
-Street

If we assume PSA gave a generic label to a few BL460s featuring the above players, it's still not a significant number. Even assuming 5 would be very generous.


A 40% difference is definitely statistically significant in this case.

[RedsFan1941]

i wish we could hear from some old time t206 collectors who don't post on N54 who could share their lifelong experiences with Uzits and Broad Leaf 460's

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

What's wrong with the old time collectors with lifelong experience who do post???

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree with Jay. There are going to be cross-over duplications in both the Uzit and BL460 Pop Reports. There's no reason to assume that one of the two backs would have more phantom cards in the report than the other........

A 40% difference is definitely statistically significant in this case.

Actually the greater the population, the greater chance of error - so I would argue that whatever error rate you want to work with, in absolute terms means more errors in the Uzits due to a larger population.

I agree a 40% difference is statistically significant.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Well at least we agree on something Ted. I don't think the 262 number for
the Uzit's is accurate either. I took the actual numbers from the pop reports
because just like the Uzit's there are crossovers with the BL460's too and I
think % wise with two rare backs like these the number of crossovers
would be close.

…..and how many of the SGC's that were 1/1's do you think David Hall picked up
for his master set that are now in PSA holders but still in SGC's pop reports?

Pat

This is an excellent point. I can tell you that a good number of T206's I sold to David Hall for his master set were SGC graded. Of course,
he converted them to PSA. Furthermore, these SGC graded cards don't necessarily have to be 1/1's. The SGC graded cards (44) which I
sold him are permanently listed in both SGC and PSA Pop reports. Therefore, the exact same card is listed twice, resulting in mis-leading
data.



As many of you guys know, the BROAD LEAF 460 (35 subjects) were printed only in the 350/460 series.

The BROAD LEAF 350 subjects were printed in the 350-only series. So, no matter how PSA has "mixed up" their Pop report listings, a
knowledgeable T206 collector will not be confused.

Listed here are the subjects who appear with BL 350 and/or BL 460 backs.
Besides the 6 super-prints, the specific pose distinguishes whether it is a BL 350 or a BL 460...….

Bender
Chance...………………….......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)……..super-print
Chase (dark cap)……….…..super-print
Doolan
Downey
Evers...…………………………...super-print
Mathewson (dark cap)…...super-print
Snodgrass
Street
Sweeney

What concerns me are all those previous years (circa 1990's - early 2000's) which PSA didn't accurately account for the BL 460 cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

i wish we could hear from some old time t206 collectors who don't post on N54 who could share their lifelong experiences with Uzits and Broad Leaf 460's

Most of the "old-timers" did not care one bit about the back of the card, hence the writing, pasting in, etc. I have went thru a couple of T206 sets put together decades ago and neither had one a remotely scarce back. All that mattered was who was on the front and the condition did not usually matter either, they just filled the hole and seldom upgraded. Very unlike today.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Luke

There are only a handful of players who have a BL350 and a confirmed BL460. So if PSA gave a generic label to a BL460, we are talking about only a few possible cards. Here are the confirmed BL460 players who also have a pose that was printed with BL350 back:

-Doolan
-Downey
-Snodgrass
-Street.

Luke, Evers yellow sky comes in a BL 350 and BL 460 back. I have owned two BL 350s and Derek owns the 460 (and we can’t seem to come to terms on that one, damn it!!).

Whoops, I see Ted posted already posted the others; I thought all super prints came in both.

[Pat R]

Evers is the only super print confirmed with both Broad Leaf backs and
the other non super prints can be distinguished by the pose whether
they're 350's or 460's.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Luke, Evers yellow sky comes in a BL 350 and BL 460 back. I have owned two BL 350s and Derek owns the 460 (and we can’t seem to come to terms on that one, damn it!!).

Whoops, I see Ted posted already posted the others; I thought all super prints came in both.

Ryan


Only three of the 6 super-prints have been confirmed with the BL 460 backs.
Chance and both Chase cards have yet to be confirmed with BL 460.


Hey, am I going to see you at the Philly Show in Oaks this weekend ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Evers is the only super print confirmed with both Broad Leaf backs and
the other non super prints can be distinguished by the pose whether
they're 350's or 460's.

Thanks for correcting me, Pat.

I forgot that Cobb and Matty have not yet been confirmed with BL 350 backs.


TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Great knowledge on this site! What is the thinking on the non-confirmed super prints - they should exist but just not confirmed? Can’t wait till one of those show up (or a Cobby or Matty 350).

Ted, I’m sorry but I won’t make this Philly show. It’s 3hrs from me and I have a crazy weekend, so I can’t just slip away for a few hours like I can at Chantilly (only 20 minutes from me- 12hrs with traffic), which sucks bc I wanted to see Mile High’s Plank in person. I will be at Chantilly, however. Have a great show and I’ll catch you at the next one.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Luke, Evers yellow sky comes in a BL 350 and BL 460 back. I have owned two BL 350s and Derek owns the 460 (and we can’t seem to come to terms on that one, damn it!!).

Whoops, I see Ted posted already posted the others; I thought all super prints came in both.

Good point Ryan. I forgot Evers. I believe this is the correct list of 5 players:

Listed here are the subjects who appear with BL 350 and/or BL 460 backs.
Besides the 6 super-prints, the specific pose distinguishes whether it is a BL 350 or a BL 460...….

Bender (no confirmed BL 460)
Chance...………………….......super-print (no confirmed BL 460)
Chase (blue portrait)……..super-print (no confirmed BL 460)
Chase (dark cap)……….…..super-print (no confirmed BL 460)
Doolan
Downey
Evers...…………………………...super-print
Mathewson (dark cap)…...super-print (no confirmed BL 350)
Snodgrass
Street
Sweeney (Jeff Sweeney does not have a BL350, although Bill Sweeney does)

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

This is an excellent point. I can tell you that a good number of T206's I sold to David Hall for his master set were SGC graded. Of course,
he converted them to PSA. Furthermore, these SGC graded cards don't necessarily have to be 1/1's. The SGC graded cards (44) which I
sold him are permanently listed in both SGC and PSA Pop reports. Therefore, the exact same card is listed twice, resulting in mis-leading
data.



As many of you guys know, the BROAD LEAF 460 (35 subjects) were printed only in the 350/460 series.

The BROAD LEAF 350 subjects were printed in the 350-only series. So, no matter how PSA has "mixed up" their Pop report listings, a
knowledgeable T206 collector will not be confused.

Listed here are the subjects who appear with BL 350 and/or BL 460 backs.
Besides the 6 super-prints, the specific pose distinguishes whether it is a BL 350 or a BL 460...….

Bender
Chance...………………….......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)……..super-print
Chase (dark cap)……….…..super-print
Doolan
Downey
Evers...…………………………...super-print
Mathewson (dark cap)…...super-print
Snodgrass
Street
Sweeney

What concerns me are all those previous years (circa 1990's - early 2000's) which PSA didn't accurately account for the BL 460 cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hey Luke

Do I thank you for copying my recent post ?


TED Z
.

[Luke]

I don't think so? Not totally sure what you mean. To recap, I wrote a list of four players who have a BL460 and a BL350 confirmed. You corrected me by adding Evers and 6 other players. I wanted to correct both of us by adding Evers to the original list, since I had overlooked him the when I wrote my initial list, and by taking the other 6 players off the list since they don't have both a confirmed BL350 and BL460.

[mrvster]

I don't have concrete evidence yet......but I strongly believe the yellow/brown sc F #30 460 " no prints" (except the super prints) printer's scraps were printed concurrently with broadleaf 460....

they are "sister" sheets and have about the same population as bl 460 and same subjects printed at the same time frame

Ted , Chris, and myself have been working on this for a few years now

collage courtesy of C. brown

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

This is an excellent point. I can tell you that a good number of T206's I sold to David Hall for his master set were SGC graded. Of course,
he converted them to PSA. Furthermore, these SGC graded cards don't necessarily have to be 1/1's. The SGC graded cards (44) which I
sold him are permanently listed in both SGC and PSA Pop reports. Therefore, the exact same card is listed twice, resulting in mis-leading
data.



As many of you guys know, the BROAD LEAF 460 (35 subjects) were printed only in the 350/460 series.

The BROAD LEAF 350 subjects were printed in the 350-only series. So, no matter how PSA has "mixed up" their Pop report listings, a
knowledgeable T206 collector will not be confused.

Listed here are the subjects who appear with BL 350 and/or BL 460 backs.

Besides the 6 super-prints, the specific pose distinguishes whether it is a BL 350 or a BL 460...….

Bender
Chance...………………….......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)……..super-print
Chase (dark cap)……….…..super-print
Doolan
Downey
Evers...…………………………...super-print
Mathewson (dark cap)…...super-print
Snodgrass
Street
Sweeney

What concerns me are all those previous years (circa 1990's - early 2000's) which PSA didn't accurately account for the BL 460 cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Luke


I clearly noted "subjects who appear with BL 350 and/or BL 460 backs"

And yes, we know that Evers is the only super-print that is confirmed with both BROAD LEAF backs. We have known this fact since Art Martineau posted of it (circa 2008).


And yes, we know that there are two Sweeney guys....Bill is a 350-only series subject and Jeff is a 340/460 series subject.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I don't have concrete evidence yet......but I strongly believe the yellow/brown sc F #30 460 " no prints" (except the super prints) printer's scraps were printed concurrently with broadleaf 460....

they are "sister" sheets and have about the same population as bl 460 and same subjects printed at the same time frame

Ted , Chris, and myself have been working on this for a few years now

collage courtesy of C. brown

Thanks for posting this collage, Johnny V.....you're the man.


Your display adds credence to my theory of how ALC divided the 63 subjects into 2 groups. These cards comprise of the T206 subjects I refer to as Group A...………
Missing in Johnny's collage from this group are Dougherty and Rucker.

These 35 subjects were printed with both of these rare backs......BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU.


.




Hey Johnny, will you be able to attend the Philly Show this weekend in Oaks (Friday - Sunday) ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[t206fix]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I don't have concrete evidence yet......but I strongly believe the yellow/brown sc F #30 460 " no prints" (except the super prints) printer's scraps were printed concurrently with broadleaf 460....

they are "sister" sheets and have about the same population as bl 460 and same subjects printed at the same time frame

Ted , Chris, and myself have been working on this for a few years now

collage courtesy of C. brown

Johnny, I've seen this pic many times and I've always wondered what the different sizes of cards mean. Why are some so large and others so small?

[Sean]

scan0004.jpgscan0005.jpg

Hey Johnny, I just want to add this Reulbach to your list of Brown- Yellow scraps.

[mrvster]

gonna try! I will look you up.....anytime.....

Tony....collage is courtesy of Chris, hard for me to see also! lol......just check bl 460 checlist no reason, I think Chris just squeezed them in...

Sean.....WOW! GEORGEOUS REULY !

these y/bs very undervalued and understood....

[MVSNYC]

Sean- I think yours is second from the right. yeah, I have 20/20 vision.

I also think Chris had some really low-res images to work with, hence why some are really small.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Sean- I think yours is second from the right. yeah, I have 20/20 vision.

Well I don't, it's more like 20/50, so I'll take your word for it.

[CMIZ5290]

BL460's are much scarcer than Uzits, not even close by a long shot. I sold a PSA 7 Uzit for $10K, a BL460 in the same grade would probably be triple in price, maybe more... Don't really know what all the fuss is about. If you have a common in a PSA 6, what do you think it would bring in a BL460 vs. Uzit? I know thats easier said than done, but BL460 would be significantly higher IMO. Surprised that this has gotten this much disagreement. I actually think that true Brown Lenox's are much scarcer than Uzits....I also think Drums are fairly close to Uzits right now....