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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
I've been collecting T206 rare backs since the early 1980's. I realize this is anecdotal but based on my experience, I consider BL460 cards and UZIT cards
essentially equal in scarcity. I also realize this is contrary to conventional wisdom. However, the basic difference which makes the BL460 cards somewhat tougher to find breaks down to a numbers game, and that is...……... 1....BL 460 backs were printed only on 350/460 series subjects. Furthermore, only 35 (of the 63 subjects) in this series were printed with the BL460 back. 2....UZIT backs were printed on 28 subjects in the 350/460 series. And theoretically, on all 46 subjects in the 460-only series (to date, 30 of these 46 sub- jects have been confirmed with the UZIT back). http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITbk.jpg Some of you will disagree with my premise here. And, that's fine with me. I look forward to a meaningful discussion regarding this subject. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Hi Ted, you might be on to something...I’ve been saying for years that UZIT are even tougher than people think. I’ve been collecting T206 for 25 years, and have owned more Drums and more BL 460’s than I have Uzits.
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I have not been collecting nearly as long as either of you, and I certainly don’t have the same experience, but as someone who has been actively acquiring rare backs over the last two years, I feel like I come across Uzits more often than BL 460s (and Drums less than both). So I don’t which is more rare, but I feel it is harder to acquire a Drum than a BL 460, and a BL 460 is harder to acquire than an Uzit. Meanwhile, I think the Uzit back is cooler than both
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Is it true that Uzits were only produced in New York over a three week period? I read that somewhere (or at least I thought I did) in my hobby travels.
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From my research BL460 is much more scarce than Uzit, but Uzit and Drum are closer than people will believe.
For what it's worth my research shows 77 graded BL460s, 218 Drum, and 235 Uzits. My data is several months old. |
That is incredible! According to the PSA Pop Report there are only 111 graded Uzits and 113 graded Drums of all T206 subjects in existance!
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I think he means “his research shows”, not that he literally has...! :p
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oops lol. I’ve been pretty on top of listings the last 15 months. I’ve seen only a couple of each but definitely more Uzit than BL460 or Drum
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
OK guys here's what the numbers (graded cards = PSA + SGC) tell us...…….
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg > > > > > > 79 graded cards / 28 confirmed subjects = 2.8 BL460's per subject (average) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITbk.jpg> > > > > > 177 graded cards / 58 confirmed subjects = 3.0 UZIT's per subject (average) Therefore, BL460 cards are just marginally scarcer than UZIT cards. I rest my case. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Ted those numbers are incorrect...what I posted above is several months old, so I'm going to refresh the numbers
TOTAL POP: Broad Leaf 460: 37 PSA + 46 SGC = 83 total Drum: 135 PSA + 88 SGC = 223 total Uzit: 143 PSA + 119 SGC = 262 total TOTAL SUBJECTS: Broad Leaf 460: 28 confirmed Drum: 126 confirmed (I think) Uzit: 58 confirmed PER SUBJECT: Broad Leaf 460: 83/28 = 2.96 Drum 223/126 = 1.77 Uzit 4.52 |
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Mike |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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Jay We are in agreement with the BROAD LEAF 460 numbers. Yours is 83 and mine is 79 (I deducted 4 because I have 1st hand knowledge that 4 subjects were crossed-over, therefore they appear twice in the Pop Report data). At least that tells me we are reading from the same source. However, your UZIT numbers are way out of whack ! Where the heck did you get "262" ? ? Incidentally, 151 - DRUM's have been confirmed. TED Z T206 Reference . |
t206resource has 153 Drums confirmed.
http://t206resource.com/Drum%20350%20Checklist.html |
Pat
Resource claims Chase (blue portrait) and Mathewson (dark cap) are "confirmed" with DRUM....well let's see some scans to verify this is true ? ? It's their same type of claims that Ames is confirmed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT. Or, their claims that Chance (batting), Bergen (catching), Murray (portrait), Overall (blue sky) are "confirmed" with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42. Sorry, but these claims are "fake news" ! TED Z T206 Reference . |
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These are where my numbers are coming from. Plus, on my spreadsheet (again admittedly data is a few months old) I have 235 cards individually attributed to players.
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Doing some spreadsheet manipulation...
Of the 28 confirmed BL460s, 19 (67.8%) have a combined population of 1, 2, or 3. Highest pop BL460 is a tie between Rucker pitching and Willis throwing with 6. Of the 58 confirmed Uzits, 25 (43.1%) have a combined population of 1, 2, or 3. Highest pop Uzit is at tie between Cobb bat off, Jennings both hands, and Merkle throwing with 12. |
Jay
I checked-out the data for every UZIT subject (58) listed inn both PSA and SGC. My combined total for PSA and SGC resulted in 178 graded cards. I subtracted the PSA Herzog from this total since he was reported twice. I don't know where those numbers you have came from ? ? TED Z . |
Those are the pop reports sorted by back...and then the total of all the data in the column as added/reported by the grading company. If you're adding up individually perhaps you're missing cards that are unattributed to a specific pose. If I add up all the cards I have attributed to players I get 235. With the 235 I am definitely not double counting.
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Gonna try a cut and paste so it might get ugly...
Abbaticchio Ed Blue Sleeves 1 Ames Red Hands above Head 0 Ball Neal Cleveland 0 Bell George Follow Thru 1 Berger Heinie 7 Bradley Bill Batting 2 Bridwell Al Cap 0 Burch Al Fielding 3 Camnitz Howie Arm at Side 0 Camnitz Howie Hands Over Head 0 Chase Hal Holding Trophy 6 Cobb Ty Bat off Shoulder 12 Conroy Wid Batting 3 Crandall Doc Cap 2 Crawford Sam Batting 5 Frill John 1 Geyer Rube 3 Herzog Buck Boston 2 Hummell John 1 Jennings Hughie One Hand Shows 2 Jennings Hughie Both Hands Show 12 Jordan Tim Batting 8 Lajoie Nap Batting 3 Lake Joe Ball 1 Lake Joe No Ball 8 Latham Arlie 10 Leach Tommy Fielding 6 Leifield Lefty Batting 3 Manning Rube Pitching 5 Marquard Rube Pitching 5 McGraw John Portrait with Cap 2 McQuillan George Batting 9 Merkle Fred Throwing 12 Mullin George Batting 6 Murray Red Portrait 1 Oldring Rube Batting 2 Overall Orval Hands at Waist 1 Overall Orval Hands Face Level 2 Pelty Barney Vertical 4 Pfeister Jake Throwing 6 Schaefer Germany Washington 5 Schlei Admiral Batting 5 Schlei Admiral Portrait 6 Schulte Wildfire Back View 0 Seymour Cy Portrait 10 Sheckard Jimmy Glove Showing 1 Smith Frank Chicago & Boston 7 Smith Happy 1 Steinfeldt Harry Batting 8 Tinker Joe Bat on Shoulder 1 Tinker Joe Bat off Shoulder 1 Wagner Heinie Bat on Rt Shoulder 8 White Doc Throwing 2 Wilhelm Kaiser Batting 4 Willetts Ed Willets 4 Willis Vic Batting 5 Wiltse Hooks Portrait with Cap 3 Wiltse Hooks Pitching 7 TOTAL: 235 |
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
Hey Pat
Looks like you stayed up till 1 AM in the morning searching thru my 6896 posts trying to find something negative to "slam" me with. This is not the 1st time you have resorted to this type of "negative" posts here against me. You have done this numerous times over the past years. I have never INITIATED negative posts against you. However, I have responded to your's. As Billy Joel once said...... "I DIDN'T START THIS FIRE" ! For whatever reason(s), you seem to have a problem with me. Well, just email me and we can discuss whatever privately online. I'm an easy going guy and I'm sure we can resolve our differences privately. Anyway, your time would be better spent informing your buddies at T206resource that they are misleading T206 collectors by claiming the following cards are confirmed..... Ames (hands above head) with AB 460 Ames (hands above head) with UZIT Chance (batting) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Bergen (catching) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Murray (portrait) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Overall (blue sky) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Hey guy, I am not the only one on this forum that has told them of these errors in their listings. Incidentally, that old post of mine regarding the blue Chase with a DRUM back was a mistake. I subsequently corrected it. I have been looking for this DRUM card since the mid-1980's to complete my blue Chase sub-set...… http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uplcate75x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...6DRUMx50bx.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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No Ted I didn't stay up all night searching your posts. You responded to Jay that you had the number of confirmed Drums at 151 and I responded that t206 research had the number at 153. When you made your fake news comment (you could have said error or mistake) it did piss me off and I was pretty sure they weren't the first to confirm Chase (blue portrait) and Matty (dark cap) so I started with the confirmed Drum list in your reference thread to see if I could find who might have confirmed them. In that post you provided this link http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90139 which led to this link https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/net5...1.html#p266235 this is the thread that you confirmed the Chase in and it took me about five minutes in all to find it. Maybe you don't think you initiated a negative post with your fake news comment but I do. I don't think I've ever initiated a negative post against you. I do admit that I have several times in response to one of yours but if I did point it out and I will apologize here in this thread. |
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Around 1990, I received a letter from an old time collector who was selling off his collection. Among the offerings was this group of 27 Uzits which he was asking $1250 for, or about $46 a card. I passed. The reason I did so- and are you ready for this- I felt it would be too difficult to resell such a large group, and that I would end up getting stuck with a bunch of them.
I equate my decision to pass with Decca Records decision to pass on the Beatles after their January, 1962 audition because, in their reasoning, who would want to listen to a rock-and-roll guitar band? The point is not to wallow in my stupidity but to suggest that it would be virtually impossible to put together a group of 27 Broadleaf 460's in a lifetime, or nearly impossible for sure. And although it's a small sample, it's enough to tell me that BL 460's are much more difficult to acquire than Uzits. |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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Hi Barry I have to chuckle over your..... "but to suggest that it would be virtually impossible to put together a group of 27 Broadleaf 460's in a lifetime, or nearly impossible for sure.". Would you say the same (or even "absolutely impossible") in finding a group of 51 - DRUM's ? From one collection in 2009, Ron Oser and I counted out 51 cards with DRUM backs....43 were T206's and 8 were T205's. We had adjacent booths at the Philly Show and Ron brought them over to me, and we sat there like two kids in a candy store sorting out these cards from a T206 find. So, my point here is that "a group of 27 Broadleaf 460's in a lifetime" is far from an impossible achievement. Thanks for sharing your story with us....very interesting. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Barry,
This story is awesome. I'm inclined to agree with your reasoning but a motivated collector with a lot of money can sometimes achieve some crazy results. Ted, what do you think of my numbers? |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
Pat
You misconstrued my "fake news" comment. It absolutely was NOT directed at you. I was referring to T206Resource's mis-leading the T206 collector's by claiming that these cards have been confirmed...…NOT TRUE ! Ames (hands above head) with AB 460 Ames (hands above head) with UZIT Chance (batting) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Bergen (catching) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Murray (portrait) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Overall (blue sky) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 That there is the "fake news" which I was referring to. OK, enough of that. In your current thread, I had an idea by posting my Tom Jones cards that would help your theory regarding the Elite 11 with respect to their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG back printings. So, I posted these cards for you...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0xP350xSov.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0xP350xSov.jpg And, these cards proved to be of help. I was happy to read your response...... Quote:
TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Jay, your list implies there is only one (1) Tinker Bat Off Uzit, but according to pop reports, this is one of four (although one may be a crossover). Sorry, couldn’t help it!
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
Jay
I started counting from your list and stopped when I saw Crandall with a TWO besides it. Crandall is an "Exclusive 12" subject. I have been closely tracking these 12 cards for years. This Crandall / UZIT is a unique card. It should have a ONE next to it. Furthermore, the Cobb (bat off shoulder) number of 12 is ridiculous. The last time I checked the Pop Report data on this card it was a TEN. And, since that number includes at least two RE-GRADES, the real number should be an EIGHT. I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with a lot of your numbers. Abbaticchio Ed Blue Sleeves 1 Ames Red Hands above Head 0 Ball Neal Cleveland 0 Bell George Follow Thru 1 Berger Heinie 7 Bradley Bill Batting 2 Bridwell Al Cap 0 Burch Al Fielding 3 Camnitz Howie Arm at Side 0 Camnitz Howie Hands Over Head 0 Chase Hal Holding Trophy 6 Cobb Ty Bat off Shoulder 12 Conroy Wid Batting 3 Crandall Doc Cap 2 ---------------------------------------- Furthermore......Herzog (Boston) with a 2 This was originally my card (Graded SGC 45). Sold it to David Hall and he had it re-graded (PSA 3). It's a unique card, and should have a ONE. There are a number of UZIT's in your list that I question their numbers. To be frank with you, I'm tired of debating this. I have double-checked my count with the SGC and PSA listings regarding these 58 cards with UZIT backs; and, again I have arrived at a number of 179 (- 2) = 177. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Ted- I remember that collection with 51 Drums. I guess you're right, anything is possible. But it still is unlikely.
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I see those 3 on sgc...since Tinker has both a bat on and off Uzit pose, I couldn't attribute which of those 3 went to which pose count so I left them off. Alas if only pop reports were perfect. I did the best I could with the available data! |
great info everyone....
I also feel the uzit is underrated and about as difficult as drum......just my observations with no hard data.....Jay....WOW! :eek:
KEEP UP THE GREAT RESEARCH! love to see your numbers.... Pat and Ted.....you are both T206 genius and love reading your data/theories both of you....I hate to see either one of you at any odds...both just incredible insight!:) and I definitely can see both of your sides on a lot of issues....love the competition, you guys "feed" off each other, and we all benefit to both of your research(and everyone else) just want to say much respect to all your hard work of all of you....Ryan, you have really become an expert:)! bl 460 super rare ....uzit rare..... and drum rare... uzit does not get the love as much:confused: great buy uzits now imho |
Barry...
Really enjoyed your story.....you are a true legend and I wish I handled 10% of the T206 you have had ! as you know, Wagner is my dream.....
keep those stories coming my friend |
Hi Johnny, it's always good to hear from you. :) You always bring something positive.
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Sean,
thanks my friend! same back at you! love your focus.....love to hear from you.....your insight is just phenomenal ...... can't wait to chat soon....:)
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Agree Sean, Hi Johnny! How you doing my man? I hope all is well; great to see you posting.
Jay, good point re tinker bat on and bat off and SGC not distinguishing; maybe there are only 2 bat off |
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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Hi Ryan My research on these two Tinker / UZIT cards indicates the following...… Bat Off....PSA (1 card)….SGC (2 cards)……..As you noted one of the so-called four is a crossover. Bat On.....PSA (1 card)….SGC (1 card) And, you posted this on another one of my threads. Quote:
And, if you still need a red HINDU, I should have two of them to choose from. TED Z T206 Reference . |
At the risk of wading in to the fray, for all of the 90's and early 00's, I was heavily into rare backs (and still am to a point) and was keeping track of as many combinations as possible from dealers, at shows and at auctions. Over that time, I saw very few Uzits, but saw them in a number of dribs and drabs. I bought both that I could (Stienfeldt and Willis) and sold the Willis through Barry. As far as Broadleaf 460s, I saw them only twice in that 15 year span- once when I bought 2 of the 4-5 one dealer had one Friday night at Ft. Washington (O'Leary and Snodgrass) and sold the O'Leary also through Barry - and a Bender that Sports Cards Plus had in a mailer that I missed out on.
Since then, I have seen marginally more Uzits but more 460's have surfaced than I thought were possible, but it's kind of like comparing California Condors and Whooping Cranes - impossibly scarce compared to the rest of the T206 world. |
great posts everyone...
its these discussions which help us understand the monster a little better:)....Barry, Jay, Sean, Ryan, Ted , Pat , Michael and the others who have posted. great to read your insight and kind words......uzits are a misunderstood animal;)
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I strongly agree that a Uzit at 2k is a better buy than a Drum at 5k given the relative scarcity. If you want a list of Uzits with pop lower than 3, send me a message. |
Are people selling clean Uzits for only 2k? If so, please send me their info.
If you're talking about commons in the PSA/SGC 2-3 range, for example...I think you're looking at 3k+ actually. Luke- weigh in. |
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Lake SGC 30 with a touch of back loss: $2700 Latham PSA 3.5: $3200 Steinfeldt PSA 4: $4000 Hummel (recently discovered combo) SGC A: $6600 My only Uzit is a Wagner that's trimmed but otherwise presentable...was $1400. These are reasonable in line with a 1-2 for $2000-3000. Luke might have been involved in a few of these transactions. |
rats60....
great to hear from you! we need to chat again soon! YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
Jay and Michael....you are exactly spot on with uzit pricing also.... Mike, i'll call you later my friend or tom to shoot the shit.. INCREDIBLE WORK EVERYONE! this is what I'm talking about.....we need these discussions to continue with all rare backs, freaks, cobbs.....discuss trends and observations of the market sales data....where is luke on this??? also so many other experts like adam , chuck, ect ect :) |
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Ted, I think Red Hindus are very underrated and underpriced. My problem is I only want them if they have an HOF front. I will take a common back Drum or BL 460 (brown Lenox and of course brown OM), but strongly prefer an HOF front on all other backs, including Uzits. |
I've never owned an Uzit, BL460 or drum but from my observation in
the time period I've been collecting T206's if someone was on a mission to collect ten of each not caring who was on the front I think the Uzits would be the easiest by far and it would be close between BL460 and Drum for second but I think Drum might actually be the toughest to get to ten with. |
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