Ashamed - Topps T206 Buy Back Fraud

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

So is this rube being charged and prosecuted?

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

[7nohitter]

Hmmmm, definitely interesting, David!

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

That is an interesting question, but I think it's important to separate out the two different issues here.

The first question is whether there was any sort of copyright or trademark infringement. I'm not an expert in that area, but since Topps may not have a copyright or trademark on the buy back holder, I can see why that may create some gray area in this particular situation.

However, as to the question of whether this violates any criminal laws, I would still say yes. Criminal liability usually attaches where there is an intent to defraud. Here, I think there was pretty clearly an intent to defraud based on the way he packaged the cards. He was clearly trying to deceive the purchasers. I believe that would come within most state and federal fraud-related statutes.

[Leon]

Forget all of the copyright stuff as it could be illegal or could not be..who knows?

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

If anyone doesn't want to send a card back to Larry, with Signature confirmation for a refund, which is crazy as there is no way in heck Larry is not going to make it right at this point, then I will be a middle person to send the card to. Once it gets to me, I will make sure the refund is done and the card gets to Larry.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

Yup.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not arguing with you, or defending Larry, but it is what its purported to be. It's a T206 card. It makes no mention of a specific card or grade - it's just as the Topps box says - a "Genuine T206 Card." Again, illegal? I'm not sure. Unethical? Very much so.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not arguing with you, or defending Larry, but it is what its purported to be. It's a T206 card. It makes no mention of a specific card or grade - it's just as the Topps box says - a "Genuine T206 Card." Again, illegal? I'm not sure. Unethical? Very much so.

In the literal sense, sure.

It does beg the question why I may pay more for a card or group of memorabilia that may be framed and presented nicely as opposed to one just in a slab, and why that may be different than being misled about a buyback or not? After all, this is just an old card presented nicely, right?

It's like one of those tricky mind games you see on NatGeo Network where they say A and B and never say C but by human nature your mind connects the dots and says C, even though it's not actually C at all.

This dude is a scumbag. Maybe you can serve as a character reference for him in the future, not because you want to defend him, but to explain potaytoze versus pahtahtoze. He knew exactly what he was doing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David -- I know you enjoy being a contrarian, but the bottom line is that obviously Larry was representing these as having come directly from Topps, when they did not, they were franken-cards that he assembled himself. And obviously the reason he did it is that people for whatever reason are willing to pay more thinking they had come directly from Topps. So it's fraud. Is it the biggest fraud in history, no, it barely registers probably. But still, I think you are off base here.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Larry was representing these as having come directly from Topps, when they did not

Not a contrarian, just a realist. You're right, he was representing them as having come from Topps (as T206Collector also pointed out as I was typing this). I'm not arguing that fact. I'm arguing whether or not it's illegal to do so. The card itself has no trademark or copyright, so what is he really infringing upon here?

Tell, you what. If you think it's illegal, why don't you do the hobby a big favor and report it? I'll even save you some time. Larry lives (or I believe he did at one time) in Buffalo, NY. You can email the Buffalo police department at tips@bpdny.org or call them directly at (716) 847-2255. Please report back and let the board know what they say.

I keep repeating myself but obviously some don't get it. I think what Larry did was totally unethical. I'm not defending him, I'm sharing my opinion of what I believe to be true (whether or not it's a crime - that was the original question which I responded to). But, again, here's your chance to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting.

[Leon]

He isn't infringing (or at least that part I am not sure of) but he is committing fraud. Fraud is illegal and is a crime. As far as getting an authority very involved for what amounts to a few Happy Meals, I agree. It probably won't happen. But don't think for a second what he did wasn't criminal. It was. It is black and white and not any gray.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Not a contrarian, just a realist. You're right, he was representing them as having come from Topps (as T206Collector also pointed out as I was typing this). I'm not arguing that fact. I'm arguing whether or not it's illegal to do so. The card itself has no trademark or copyright, so what is he really infringing upon here?

Tell, you what. If you think it's illegal, why don't you do the hobby a big favor and report it? I'll even save you some time. Larry lives (or I believe he did at one time) in Buffalo, NY. You can email the Buffalo police department at tips@bpdny.org or call them directly at (716) 847-2255. Please report back and let the board know what they say.

I keep repeating myself but obviously some don't get it. I think what Larry did was totally unethical. I'm not defending him, I'm sharing my opinion of what I believe to be true (whether or not it's a crime - that was the original question which I responded to). But, again, here's your chance to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting.

[JohnP0621]

His whole story stinks. He claims it was his Brother that listed the cards on EBay yet in June 2017 he is trying to sell them on Net 54 to a member. Unless it was also his Brother that made him do it.
Sorry I don't buy his BS story.


John P

[KendallCat]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Not a contrarian, just a realist. You're right, he was representing them as having come from Topps (as T206Collector also pointed out as I was typing this). I'm not arguing that fact. I'm arguing whether or not it's illegal to do so. The card itself has no trademark or copyright, so what is he really infringing upon here?

Tell, you what. If you think it's illegal, why don't you do the hobby a big favor and report it? I'll even save you some time. Larry lives (or I believe he did at one time) in Buffalo, NY. You can email the Buffalo police department at tips@bpdny.org or call them directly at (716) 847-2255. Please report back and let the board know what they say.

I keep repeating myself but obviously some don't get it. I think what Larry did was totally unethical. I'm not defending him, I'm sharing my opinion of what I believe to be true (whether or not it's a crime - that was the original question which I responded to). But, again, here's your chance to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting.

I think in this case it would be wise to not be trying to play devils advocate or LA Law, and even appearing to take his side or trying to argue semantics of what is legal or unethical is not the point. The fact that you are even trying to stay on the other side of the line is what is interesting, and if I was a collector or dealer and read your rhetoric I would not have any dealings with you now or in the future.

What he did was fraud which is illegal and punishable by law - period. Not too hard to understand. Not a matter of did Topps copyright it or trademark it for it to be fraud. Representing something as an item that is one thing with the intention to deceive for financial gain is fraud and illegal - period. Not sure what there is to be confused about on this one.

KC

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not arguing with you, or defending Larry, but it is what its purported to be. It's a T206 card. It makes no mention of a specific card or grade - it's just as the Topps box says - a "Genuine T206 Card." Again, illegal? I'm not sure. Unethical? Very much so.

Here's the description on the eBay auctions from the OP/seller:

"1909-11 Topps Buyback Bobby Wallace HOF Piedmont 350 back.

I just acquired a huge lot of Topps Buybacks with Hall of Famers, Southern Leaguers, and tougher backs. These will be listed in the near future. "

It is a representation that it is a Topps product, which it isn't.

[ullmandds]

[QUOTE=T206Collector;1689394]Here's the description on the eBay auctions from the OP/seller:

"1909-11 Topps Buyback Bobby Wallace HOF Piedmont 350 back.

I just acquired a huge lot of Topps Buybacks with Hall of Famers, Southern Leaguers, and tougher backs. These will be listed in the near future. "

It is a representation that it is a Topps product, which it isn't.[/QUOTE

I didnt think these typically had "tougher backs?"

[Tao_Moko]

[QUOTE=ullmandds;1689415]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Here's the description on the eBay auctions from the OP/seller:

"1909-11 Topps Buyback Bobby Wallace HOF Piedmont 350 back.

I just acquired a huge lot of Topps Buybacks with Hall of Famers, Southern Leaguers, and tougher backs. These will be listed in the near future. "

It is a representation that it is a Topps product, which it isn't.[/QUOTE

I didnt think these typically had "tougher backs?"

I purchased a Ganley with the Piedmont350 back from an AH(not Larry). I'm sure an oversight by Topps and not a "tough" brand, but is a card with a very small population.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

I purchased a Ganley with the Piedmont350 back from an AH(not Larry). I'm sure an oversight by Topps and not a "tough" brand, but is a card with a very small population.

Same scenario as you Eric with two Buybacks that I've purchased. Neither came from Larry H. and I bought them mainly because of the player/back combination than solely collecting them.

The two that I purchased were Karger & Ewing with Piedmont 350 backs, so I think you are safe with the Ganley.

Jantz

[vintagetoppsguy]

There have been people caught putting phony period stamps (e.g. Toy Town, F Scott Fitzgerald, etc.) on the backs of T206s to deceive the guys that collect back stamps. These obviously sell for a premium to the ones that collect them. Do you think that's a crime as well or just unethical? I'm not looking for a debate as I don't believe there is really a right answer. Just an opinion.

I think that's a pretty good comparison though because the objective is the same in both cases.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look up 18 USC 1343 if you want to play lawyer. Oh wait, someone already posted it. The issue isn't infringement, it's fraud, plain and simple.

[tothrk]

I'm not looking to argue either. I'm not a lawyer or legal expert. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I believe what he did/has been doing (multiple times) is a crime. He did what he did with the intent to deceive. He did this for monetary gain. Once he is done with being ashamed and making everything right, he should be banned from the board for life with the possibility of parole in 15 years. Sadly, there is too much shady crap in this hobby. That is why I now collect only items which no one has ever seen or even heard of.