Money in the hobby

[steve B]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

I have Always Referred to David's Knowledge of Ink Processing & Photography. His explanation of radiometric & carbon dating is sound teaching.
And even if it were possible ta somehow get by or around this major issue,
You still have the Papar Problem!

Ovar the Years From What I have found, We Simply Don't Know How the Papar was produced.
To think that someone in todays techno world could easily figure this out is Truly an immense project.
And iN Reality... No one would spend the Time, Effort & Money ta do So!
Only to Come uP Short of Victory!!!

I have looked at and discuss the material that is comprised within T206's, E90-1's & T205's wit a friend of mine(Who's Family own's one of the Largest Printin Co.'s in New York, His Great Grand Father start'd the Co. RiGHT Around 1901), And wit All His Knowledge, antique museum material, along wit his family past antique equipment, The whole bunch of'em are Clueless to how the papar was process'd/made!

Sure there are those wit well educated theory's...
Howevar, has Anyone replicated their theory inta a product & proved it can be done?

Kinda like Buildin a Viking longship or even replicatin their steel...
The World's Best have tried and fail'd!

LookiN at the Side view of a T206, under a 50x optic can be Truly FasinatiN...
If You havn't tried it as of yet, Giv'er a Go...

Kind of messing up the timelines by responding as I go through the thread. Sorry, can't think of a better way.

Knowing people in the printing business where it's a place that goes back to 1901 is pretty cool.

But it goes right to what I said in another post.
They really KNOW printing. But they don't make paper, so it's a mystery.

The paper people know how the paper was made. Cranes has a small museum in Dalton that shows the process that came before machine made paper.
The machine process isn't much different than making paper by hand, except for how it's more precise, and done on a very large scale.
I'm sure a mill would make you whatever you wanted - IF you bought enough. I sort of don't want to know what a minimum run of special paper is. I've had special stuff made a couple times, and finding a place that will make say 500 lbs /a few hundred feet of a special size metal tube is difficult. And that's just a small redraw mill, not an actual tubing mill.

So duplicating it would mean replicating the process on a small scale that's typically done by a very large machine. (The one that makes our money paper- if my Jr High memory is correct- is about 200 Ft long if not more.)
That's really not easy.

Steve B

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by steve B

Kind of messing up the timelines by responding as I go through the thread. Sorry, can't think of a better way.

Knowing people in the printing business where it's a place that goes back to 1901 is pretty cool.

But it goes right to what I said in another post.
They really KNOW printing. But they don't make paper, so it's a mystery.

The paper people know how the paper was made. Cranes has a small museum in Dalton that shows the process that came before machine made paper.
The machine process isn't much different than making paper by hand, except for how it's more precise, and done on a very large scale.
I'm sure a mill would make you whatever you wanted - IF you bought enough. I sort of don't want to know what a minimum run of special paper is. I've had special stuff made a couple times, and finding a place that will make say 500 lbs /a few hundred feet of a special size metal tube is difficult. And that's just a small redraw mill, not an actual tubing mill.

So duplicating it would mean replicating the process on a small scale that's typically done by a very large machine. (The one that makes our money paper- if my Jr High memory is correct- is about 200 Ft long if not more.)
That's really not easy.

Steve B

Steve, Dankz fir the discussion!

I was of the Same Mind Set!
Until They, Which Included a Gentlemen Who's Family had made their Papar
fir just about the same amount of time educated me.
(I guess my implications were in my head but didn't translate well inta my writings, "My Apologies Sir!)

I was Schooled in the process...
And Then was Told THaT Sum of the Process & Materials are Known
Howevar, The Expertise through the lack of Experience has been Lost.

The "What ta Use" is Sum What Known..
But the How, How Much & When ta Process them is Gone!

They concluded with Reproducing the Card Stock
Fir T206's, E90-1's & T205's Would be a NiGHTMare...

I Realize that there are many More Knowledgeable People witin the Papar Industry out there (And I'm Certainly Not one of them!) Wit more optimistic attitudes about Reproducin These Specific Card Stocks...

I just want ta add that Lost Arts are everywhere witin the History of Man
And from what I've found out this seems like a logical "Lost Art" ~

I Do Like Bein Correct...
I Just Very Rarely am!

Unless it has t do wit Electronic Theory

[steve B]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Steve, Dankz fir the discussion!

I was of the Same Mind Set!
Until They, Which Included a Gentlemen Who's Family had made their Papar
fir just about the same amount of time educated me.
(I guess my implications were in my head but didn't translate well inta my writings, "My Apologies Sir!)

I was Schooled in the process...
And Then was Told THaT Sum of the Process & Materials are Known
Howevar, The Expertise through the lack of Experience has been Lost.

The "What ta Use" is Sum What Known..
But the How, How Much & When ta Process them is Gone!

They concluded with Reproducing the Card Stock
Fir T206's, E90-1's & T205's Would be a NiGHTMare...

I Realize that there are many More Knowledgeable People witin the Papar Industry out there (And I'm Certainly Not one of them!) Wit more optimistic attitudes about Reproducin These Specific Card Stocks...

I just want ta add that Lost Arts are everywhere witin the History of Man
And from what I've found out this seems like a logical "Lost Art" ~

I Do Like Bein Correct...
I Just Very Rarely am!

Unless it has t do wit Electronic Theory

Perhaps.
That someone with a lot of years in says it would be really hard must count for something.

One of the good things about paper is that for the most part papermaking back then was a bit less precise than it is now.
There's a variety with the stamps I collect known as "straw paper" Because it's got bits of straw/hay in it. Some people consider it as an entirely different paper. The reality is that if the vat of pulp has to be just fluid enough for the purpose, not too thick, not too watery. But since it's there all day being mixed they have to constantly add water. Back then, if too much water was added they'd throw in a bale or two of hay to thicken it up, resulting in a bit of the batch getting a bunch of hay particles in it.
That's 1870's -80's, and things barely changed at all between then and 1910.

Now it's probably constantly checked by sensors and a computer controls the water content.

Yes, a bunch of that expertise would have been lost. Duplicating it precisely so nobody could tell probably isn't possible. Duplicating it so it's really hard to tell? I think it's doable.

Steve B

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve B

Perhaps.
That someone with a lot of years in says it would be really hard must count for something.

One of the good things about paper is that for the most part papermaking back then was a bit less precise than it is now.
There's a variety with the stamps I collect known as "straw paper" Because it's got bits of straw/hay in it. Some people consider it as an entirely different paper. The reality is that if the vat of pulp has to be just fluid enough for the purpose, not too thick, not too watery. But since it's there all day being mixed they have to constantly add water. Back then, if too much water was added they'd throw in a bale or two of hay to thicken it up, resulting in a bit of the batch getting a bunch of hay particles in it.
That's 1870's -80's, and things barely changed at all between then and 1910.

Now it's probably constantly checked by sensors and a computer controls the water content.

Yes, a bunch of that expertise would have been lost. Duplicating it precisely so nobody could tell probably isn't possible. Duplicating it so it's really hard to tell? I think it's doable.

Steve B

But getting the paper right is only the start. Unless you have the original plate or the original photo from which it was derived, you won't be able to match the legitimate dot pattern produced by the printing process.

Happy collecting,

Larry

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

But getting the paper right is only the start. Unless you have the original plate or the original photo from which it was derived, you won't be able to match the legitimate dot pattern produced by the printing process.

Happy collecting,

Larry

I believe that is also possible, and in some cases may be easier than duplicating the paper and ink.

Sometimes I consider giving it a try just to prove it's possible, then I start adding up the cost what I'd need, and the hours I'd have to spend, and for me it's just too expensive without the willingness to actually put a few out there. That's a line I just wouldn't cross, I'd end up as a great technician who wasn't any better than some guy with a laser printer and some cardboard. And more than likely one who was doing time.

Now if some one wanted to sponsor the project as a bit of performance art with all the card/cards and the entire setup destroyed at the end to be sure they weren't sold.......(Adds to list of bad ideas that I'm probably glad there wouldn't be any support for.)

Steve B

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe that is also possible, and in some cases may be easier than duplicating the paper and ink.

Sometimes I consider giving it a try just to prove it's possible, then I start adding up the cost what I'd need, and the hours I'd have to spend, and for me it's just too expensive without the willingness to actually put a few out there. That's a line I just wouldn't cross, I'd end up as a great technician who wasn't any better than some guy with a laser printer and some cardboard. And more than likely one who was doing time.

Now if some one wanted to sponsor the project as a bit of performance art with all the card/cards and the entire setup destroyed at the end to be sure they weren't sold.......(Adds to list of bad ideas that I'm probably glad there wouldn't be any support for.)

Steve B

No. To match the original dot pattern, you'd need the original plate, or the original photo/negative to make a duplicate "original" plate. All likely long since gone. Try to do it from a different approach and you will leave different footprints at, as David says, the Microscopic level, and I believe at the high power magnification level--say 16x--as well.

Happy collecting,

Larry