T206 Who should be a HOFer that isn't ???

[Topps206]

I also am a Kaat supporter.

Cravath not only debuted at 27, he spent 29 and 30 in the minors.

His offense was fantastic, even at the end.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I also am a Kaat supporter.

Cravath not only debuted at 27, he spent 29 and 30 in the minors.

His offense was fantastic, even at the end.

That is the problem. He wasn't good enough to play in the majors at a time when he should have been in his prime. He failed for 3 different teams before landing in a stadium where he could thrive. .273/.363/.410 are is career numbers in road games. It is no wonder he failed in Boston, Chicago and Washington. .410 slugging percentage for a guy whose strength was as a power hitter.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is the problem. He wasn't good enough to play in the majors at a time when he should have been in his prime. He failed for 3 different teams before landing in a stadium where he could thrive. .273/.363/.410 are is career numbers in road games. It is no wonder he failed in Boston, Chicago and Washington. .410 slugging percentage for a guy whose strength was as a power hitter.

The other two numbers aren't bad, but that seems like spin to me. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't seem he was given a fair shake until later.

[packs]

I don't think you can really say he failed. He was playing in the PCL until he was 27 years old. You might see PCL today and think minor leagues, but at the time it was the major leagues of the West. Players made almost the same amount of money and could play close to home, so many of them did just that.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think you can really say he failed. He was playing in the PCL until he was 27 years old. You might see PCL today and think minor leagues, but at the time it was the major leagues of the West. Players made almost the same amount of money and could play close to home, so many of them did just that.

Keep in mind it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the MLB Hall of Fame. I have no doubt he'd be a lot better known if there was the technology and social media we have now back in his day.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think you can really say he failed. He was playing in the PCL until he was 27 years old. You might see PCL today and think minor leagues, but at the time it was the major leagues of the West. Players made almost the same amount of money and could play close to home, so many of them did just that.

Keep in mind it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the MLB Hall of Fame. I have no doubt he'd be a lot better known if there was the technology and social media we have now back in his day.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Topps206

The other two numbers aren't bad, but that seems like spin to me. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't seem he was given a fair shake until later.

He played 117 games before he got to the Phillies. That is more than a fair shake. He didn't play well enough to stick in the majors and was sent down. A HOFer in his prime years should have been able to stick.

The PCL may have been better than a minor league. That doesn't change the fact that he wasn't able to make the jump to the majors until being sent down for 2 years and then landing in a favorable stadium that allowed him inflate his stats. This sounds to me like a good but not great player who has no business in the HOF.

7 full years just isn't enough for a guy who struggled to make the big leagues and was average away from the Baker Bowl.

[packs]

Just curious if you were aware that Cravath was a right handed batter hitting his homeruns to right field? It takes tremendous ability to do that. Also, the original Yankee Stadium dimensions were 295 feet to right field and only 281 feet to left field. Do you discount Ruth and Gehrig's totals knowing that?

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by rats60

He played 117 games before he got to the Phillies. That is more than a fair shake. He didn't play well enough to stick in the majors and was sent down. A HOFer in his prime years should have been able to stick.

The PCL may have been better than a minor league. That doesn't change the fact that he wasn't able to make the jump to the majors until being sent down for 2 years and then landing in a favorable stadium that allowed him inflate his stats. This sounds to me like a good but not great player who has no business in the HOF.

7 full years just isn't enough for a guy who struggled to make the big leagues and was average away from the Baker Bowl.

He also had a 137 OPS+ with Boston in 94 games in 1908. He did struggle in 23 games in 1909 between two clubs, but does anyone make a Hall of Famer in their first 117 games? Of course not. So why is someone not a Hall of Famer in their first 117 games?

Very rarely do I support short career players. Cravath is a rare exception.