T206 Who should be a HOFer that isn't ???

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

among other things....


look, it's a FACT that pitcher wins are a bad way to judge production


it's also a FACT that ERA (and it's derivatives) give too much credit to the pitcher for results that are often not of their own doing (defensive plays, unearned runs which are arbitrarily distributed)

it's a fact that K/BB ratio is a good way to judge pitcher production as he has direct control over them. Reulbach's is not very good.

FIP is better, WAR is a good thumbnail to use to compare players by era. It isn't perfect, by WAR Reulbach is right on the cusp of HOF status, but his peripherals don't paint such a rosy picture. I can see why "big hall" people would want him in, but I am a small hall person and think too many borderline and undeserving guys are in already, no need to muddy the waters with more of em.

Those are not facts, those are your opinions. I strongly disagree with them. YOU brought up ERA. I brought up ERA+ which is a much better stat as it adjusts for the park the pitcher was pitching in. Even your crappy WAR uses ERA +.

K/BB ratio is not a good way to judge a pitcher. Weakly hit balls, pop outs, easy flies, double plays are also good ways to judge a pitcher, but are ignored by FIP. FIP treats every hit ball as equal. Anyone who has ever watched a baseball game knows that is not true. Baseball is a game of skill, not luck. Luck factors will average out over a career. Also, one of the main components of FIP are HRs, which aren't even a major issue in the period Reulbach pitched.

The bottom line is the team that allows the fewest runs wins the game. ERA+ is the best measure of that. All of your stats are fine in theory, but in the real world, Reulbach produced a great win loss record by preventing runs. He was a top 10 pitcher in his era and I will take him over all those guys with better FIP, but poor ERA+.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by rats60

Those are not facts, those are your opinions. I strongly disagree with them. YOU brought up ERA. I brought up ERA+ which is a much better stat as it adjusts for the park the pitcher was pitching in. Even your crappy WAR uses ERA +.

K/BB ratio is not a good way to judge a pitcher. Weakly hit balls, pop outs, easy flies, double plays are also good ways to judge a pitcher, but are ignored by FIP. FIP treats every hit ball as equal. Anyone who has ever watched a baseball game knows that is not true. Baseball is a game of skill, not luck. Luck factors will average out over a career. Also, one of the main components of FIP are HRs, which aren't even a major issue in the period Reulbach pitched.

The bottom line is the team that allows the fewest runs wins the game. ERA+ is the best measure of that. All of your stats are fine in theory, but in the real world, Reulbach produced a great win loss record by preventing runs. He was a top 10 pitcher in his era and I will take him over all those guys with better FIP, but poor ERA+.

Great points, thanks..Also, Kling was a fantastic catcher, closely worth to HOF status IMO...

[Topps206]

I don't get the Kling arguments. If you want to argue a former Cub, Dahlen is first and foremost, though Stan Hack also has a case.

[Herpolsheimer]

I believe that all of the great players have made it to Cooperstown from the early years of the game and now we are only discussing very good players that might get voted in by committees that have only seen today's games. However, there are some omissions like Joe Jackdon that clearly deserve the honor but have been deemed to be ineligible for one reason or another. it seems that Hal Chase may have fallen into this dungeon of despair with Joe Jackson and more recently Pete Rose. While not banned he clearly was highly respected by his peers and perhaps remains one of the few 'special' players from his era not to be in Cooperstown. He may have been loved.... 5 T206 Cards....

[Topps206]

Changing the Hall committees isn't enough. We need actual historians voting for this era, not Hall of Famers from the modern era.

Blyleven said he researched Dahlen and Stovey on Wikipedia.

Boy would I have loved to have been in that meeting last year when they were turned away.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Changing the Hall committees isn't enough. We need actual historians voting for this era, not Hall of Famers from the modern era.

Blyleven said he researched Dahlen and Stovey on Wikipedia.

Boy would I have loved to have been in that meeting last year when they were turned away.

Topps206 = mic drop.

DS

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

Topps206 = mic drop.

DS

It just makes my blood boil. Justice for Dahlen and Magee. Justice for Gavvy and Doyle. Bill Dineen contributed so much as both an umpire and a pitcher and he hasn't been inducted yet.

I'm just so mad they'll only be considered once a decade. I'm also convinced Babe Adams is worthy of enshrinement. I would beg to be on the Early Baseball committee in 2020, but who ever said Hall of Fame voters were logical folk?