T206 Who should be a HOFer that isn't ???

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Baker Bowl or not, Cravath had a peak bested by very few in history. He was probably the best player on that 1915 Phillies team which won the pennant. He absolutely should be in.

I don't see how a guy with 5 great years in an 11 year career should be a HOF'er. (and those great years aren't at Koufax type levels either) Yes his wRC+ of 150 is very good, but it is inflated by 3 very high years. If you are gonna let people in with those sorts of careers, you might as well open the floodgates.

and yes Larry Walker and Todd Helton are more deserving as they were as good or better for longer.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

I don't see how a guy with 5 great years in an 11 year career should be a HOF'er. (and those great years aren't at Koufax type levels either) Yes his wRC+ of 150 is very good, but it is inflated by 3 very high years. If you are gonna let people in with those sorts of careers, you might as well open the floodgates.

and yes Larry Walker and Todd Helton are more deserving as they were as good or better for longer.

Keep in mind that this is also because his career was shortened and didn't get his chance early on, but more than made up for it in his thirties.

Walker gets a raw deal. All it takes is a few minutes of research to see he was not a product of Coors.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Keep in mind that this is also because his career was shortened and didn't get his chance early on, but more than made up for it in his thirties.

Walker gets a raw deal. All it takes is a few minutes of research to see he was not a product of Coors.

I get that, he didn't even make it to MLB until he was 27. BUT, we have to judge players by what they did and not by what they might have done.

IF, Josh Donaldson has one more great year then declines into a 1.4 WAR player over his last 4 years would he be a HOF'er? That's kinda the argument you are making. I would say no, not good enough for long enough.

but, as I have stated before, I am a "small hall" guy and think too many borderline players are in already.

yet I think Jim Kaat deserves it, so there goes that right!

[Topps206]

I also am a Kaat supporter.

Cravath not only debuted at 27, he spent 29 and 30 in the minors.

His offense was fantastic, even at the end.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I also am a Kaat supporter.

Cravath not only debuted at 27, he spent 29 and 30 in the minors.

His offense was fantastic, even at the end.

That is the problem. He wasn't good enough to play in the majors at a time when he should have been in his prime. He failed for 3 different teams before landing in a stadium where he could thrive. .273/.363/.410 are is career numbers in road games. It is no wonder he failed in Boston, Chicago and Washington. .410 slugging percentage for a guy whose strength was as a power hitter.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is the problem. He wasn't good enough to play in the majors at a time when he should have been in his prime. He failed for 3 different teams before landing in a stadium where he could thrive. .273/.363/.410 are is career numbers in road games. It is no wonder he failed in Boston, Chicago and Washington. .410 slugging percentage for a guy whose strength was as a power hitter.

The other two numbers aren't bad, but that seems like spin to me. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't seem he was given a fair shake until later.

[packs]

I don't think you can really say he failed. He was playing in the PCL until he was 27 years old. You might see PCL today and think minor leagues, but at the time it was the major leagues of the West. Players made almost the same amount of money and could play close to home, so many of them did just that.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Topps206

The other two numbers aren't bad, but that seems like spin to me. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't seem he was given a fair shake until later.

He played 117 games before he got to the Phillies. That is more than a fair shake. He didn't play well enough to stick in the majors and was sent down. A HOFer in his prime years should have been able to stick.

The PCL may have been better than a minor league. That doesn't change the fact that he wasn't able to make the jump to the majors until being sent down for 2 years and then landing in a favorable stadium that allowed him inflate his stats. This sounds to me like a good but not great player who has no business in the HOF.

7 full years just isn't enough for a guy who struggled to make the big leagues and was average away from the Baker Bowl.