Extremely worrisome possible trend.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Saw this listing on Ebay yesterday -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-9-BGS...cAAOSwnipWY7a5

What is the possible benefit of purchasing cracked flips unless you plan on reusing them? I do not like the path this is headed.

I have seen several conversations/debates on this subject in the past. It's hard to pinpoint all of the issues but there are many.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have seen several conversations/debates on this subject in the past. It's hard to pinpoint all of the issues but there are many.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but what possible arguments could be made in favor of allowing the sale of cracked out flips? That someone collects flips or just wanted a flip from a high end card? I don't buy it. I think the likelihood of them being used to commit fraud in the future should be enough to prohibit their resale on a major site like ebay.

That being said, I doubt these flips present much of a risk. That this could be a trend, or that these sales are allowed at all does bother me.

[JustinD]

I think Doug has read me wrong as much as I have him. I also very much appreciate the civil discussions on this, it is wonderful that we can all have differing opinions and not be silly about it.

In all honesty, I have NEVER submitted a card to a grading service. Talked about doing it, but never got around to it. Not to say that I certainly might in the future someday, but I too feel that the values for subjective grades are way overblown. Also, I would rather get more cards than pay for grading with my money.

Here's where we differ though. If I am at a show or buying a card I can handle in person, I trust my skills and will buy raw in a second. Admittedly most of my collection is raw cards. However, when buying via the net or auction I admit I prefer a graded card. I can normally easily spot a fake, but the trimming is too prevalent and I have just gotten pissed off at card doctors. The annoyance of returning a card or finding out later due to laziness is draining. I like the partial safety net, whether or not it is 100%.

I also know that if I want top dollar for my cards at resale if I choose to liquidate, I will need to grade them or face a heavy fiscal punishment...that's life. I buy raw cards to save money because they sell lower. The fraudsters and card trimmers have made the hobby what it is today...paranoid.

If you want to take a stance or statement on grading it's fine with me, just realize the importance it has come to play in the hobby and how much damage to our collections it could do if that system collapses and those collectors that hope for that security, no matter how tenuous, drop out of the buying pool.

If someone wants to measure the current importance of grading in investment cards, I ask them to break out a high grade card (52 mick, 1916 ruth) and sell it raw as a statement to put their money where their mouth is. I will wager it will have a hard time selling at half its graded counterparts.

I can certainly hate the way the current is going, but it's a bitch to paddle against it.

When graders get it wrong we all get up in arms, but hell, the only two things I know are always 100% are death and taxes. I'll take the better odds on anything any day, especially if all I am looking at is a possibly photoshopped scan from 1200 miles away.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I think Doug has read me wrong as much as I have him.

Nope.

With no disrespect intended to you Justin, I didn't read you wrong because I haven't read the entirety of any of your posts. The reason that I often remove the name of the person I quote when I respond is because I do not mean my statements to be aimed directly at that person, I mean them to be aimed at anyone who agrees with the quote I'm responding to.

My thoughts on "third party graders" as many like to call them, but who I prefer to call "the people who get paid for their opinions" was pretty much summed up in my second post to this thread, which I will repeat here :

The existence of "the people who get paid for their opinions" has contributed more to the "death of the hobby" than all the flip sellers in the world combined.

That's a pretty straight forward statement who's meaning can't be misunderstood.

Oh wait, maybe I misunderstood what you meant, do "the people who get paid for their opinions" charge $25?

That's a joke, referencing the previous statement.

I won't even comment on the words "reliable grading services" being used in conjunction with the words "to offer assurance".

Another joke, again referencing the first statement.

When it comes to getting paid opinions on my stuff, I always think the best option would be Dmitri Young, he seems to have an eye for great cards.

Another joke. I LOVE mentioning Dmitri in any conversation about paid opinions, because if you know your paid opinion history, then you know that Mr. Young was pretty good at getting higher quality opinions on his cards than the previous owners of the same cards. Of course, those of you who collect opinions, and consider the cards themselves to be secondary, probably missed the humor.

The great thing about my jokes is that they all make me laugh, and because I believe that a joke that makes anybody laugh is by definition a funny joke, that means all of my jokes are funny. To me. I don't really give a shit about what anybody else thinks.

Except for Al. I like it when I think Al is getting a grin on his face as he watches me do my Public Enemy impersonation.

Al didn't get that one, he's going to have to google that one (sorry Al). They're a rap act, who are also members of the Rock & Roll HOF

Good night,
Doug "paid opinions are the worst thing to happen to the hobby since Upper Deck introduced chase cards" Goodman


PS - The irony of me posting such a long post after admitting to not reading Justin's long posts is not lost on me, but will be lost on many of you because you didn't read far enough to make it to this sentence.

[polakoff]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but what possible arguments could be made in favor of allowing the sale of cracked out flips? That someone collects flips or just wanted a flip from a high end card? I don't buy it.

You should.

I'm a player collector of Chris Coghlan and given that I have almost all of his easy-to-obtain stuff I have to go for the obscure...which isn't that plentiful given that he's somewhat of an obscure player to begin with. If a loose flip of his popped up on ebay I'd buy it in a second if the price were reasonable. Why? I can't even tell you. I just know that if there's something of his that I don't have, I want it, even if it isn't catalogued.

Just like people buy expired and USED redemptions (I'm guilty here too), people will buy these. My guess is the buyer intends to break the lot up. Of all the Rose collectors in the world, there has to be someone interested in a flip. Likewise for the other guys. Check out "expired redemption" on ebay and notice all the sales. This is the same thing, except that there are theoretically hundreds of expired redemptions out there...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kris-Bryant-...8AAOSwbdpWYIej <---that's for a USED redemption! The market for ANYTHING unique is there. I wouldn't automatically jump to malice on the part of the buyers and sellers involved with these.

[Leon]

I didn't really think collectors would collect old flips just to collect them. Naive me....

Originally Posted by polakoff

You should.

I'm a player collector of Chris Coghlan and given that I have almost all of his easy-to-obtain stuff I have to go for the obscure...which isn't that plentiful given that he's somewhat of an obscure player to begin with. If a loose flip of his popped up on ebay I'd buy it in a second if the price were reasonable. Why? I can't even tell you. I just know that if there's something of his that I don't have, I want it, even if it isn't catalogued.

Just like people buy expired and USED redemptions (I'm guilty here too), people will buy these. My guess is the buyer intends to break the lot up. Of all the Rose collectors in the world, there has to be someone interested in a flip. Likewise for the other guys. Check out "expired redemption" on ebay and notice all the sales. This is the same thing, except that there are theoretically hundreds of expired redemptions out there...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kris-Bryant-...8AAOSwbdpWYIej <---that's for a USED redemption! The market for ANYTHING unique is there. I wouldn't automatically jump to malice on the part of the buyers and sellers involved with these.

[Buythatcard]

Maybe one way to prevent people from reusing labels is to have an expiration date on each card that is graded. If you own a graded card whether you submitted it or not, you would just use some app to scan in the whole slab to register it again. The app would check it against its database to make sure the card matches the original one that was graded. If it does, them the it would extend the expiration date.

It's a far fetched idea but one never knows.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by polakoff

You should.

I'm a player collector of Chris Coghlan and given that I have almost all of his easy-to-obtain stuff I have to go for the obscure...which isn't that plentiful given that he's somewhat of an obscure player to begin with. If a loose flip of his popped up on ebay I'd buy it in a second if the price were reasonable. Why? I can't even tell you. I just know that if there's something of his that I don't have, I want it, even if it isn't catalogued.

Just like people buy expired and USED redemptions (I'm guilty here too), people will buy these. My guess is the buyer intends to break the lot up. Of all the Rose collectors in the world, there has to be someone interested in a flip. Likewise for the other guys. Check out "expired redemption" on ebay and notice all the sales. This is the same thing, except that there are theoretically hundreds of expired redemptions out there...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kris-Bryant-...8AAOSwbdpWYIej <---that's for a USED redemption! The market for ANYTHING unique is there. I wouldn't automatically jump to malice on the part of the buyers and sellers involved with these.

Even so, I think the risk for fraud outweighs the benefit to the few out there who would collect flips. The point someone else made about certificates or letters of authenticity sales not being allowed for the same reasons makes sense to me. I believe these flips should fall into that same category.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by polakoff

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kris-Bryant-...8AAOSwbdpWYIej <---that's for a USED redemption! The market for ANYTHING unique is there. I wouldn't automatically jump to malice on the part of the buyers and sellers involved with these.

At least that's a card issued by Topps, I understand why there would be a market for that.

I don't understand collecting flips, but to each his own.

[the 'stache]

I think dismissing this because it's "only" BCCG is dangerous thinking. I doubt many members of this forum buy BCCG-graded cards, as we have a higher level of hobby sophistication. But what about the parents of kids who have expressed an interest in collecting for the first time? They might go online to EBay, searching for a birthday or Christmas present, and decide upon a BCCG 10 card of their kid's favorite player. Neither they, or their kid, will have any clue that they have been duped.

Are we looking to protect only ourselves, or everybody that might want to venture into baseball card collecting? This kind of abhorrent behavior has no place in our hobby. Period.