SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector

[brewing]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Does anyone know that if I joined the PSA collector's club, am I able to use my (6) free grading vouchers all for crossover reviews? Each of the cards are in the less than $499 declared value category.



Any info is appreciated.



Thanks,



Tony

You can break it up between crossovers and raw subs. I've done it and I'm doing it again. The caveat is you have to pay shipping for 2 separate orders. So account for it.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6).

The upper left corner doesn't look so hot either.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.

true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......

basically I think Kershaw can do what M. Rivera did or much much closer than M. Rivera can do what Kershaw did..

I would say adam waighnright is one of the better SPs that was a reliever..but was only a reliever for a short time.... M. Rivera was a starting pitcher for a short time and was horrible...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......

Yes but so what. That's like saying more shortstops become third basemen than vice versa, or that more outfielders become first basemen than vice versa. Since a team needs both, I am not sure what the point is?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but so what. That's like saying more shortstops become third basemen than vice versa, or that more outfielders become first basemen than vice versa. Since a team needs both, I am not sure what the point is?

right teams need a good catcher who doesn't have to hit too..teams need lots of guys....but they all don't make the HOF

my point is SPs are on a whole different much higher level in the HOF versus closers....unless they can be judged on 1200 innings just like closers are and not 5000 + innings ..do we have to go through this again?

[T206Collector]

I switched from PSA to SGC years ago when I started getting PSA 5s off ebay that had obvious wrinkles or trimming problems. I don't mind an EX card with roundness to the corners, so long as there are no damn creases. I've never been failed by SGC on this front. When I buy a card that I can see centering and corner issues in the scan myself -- I don't need TPG for that -- I want to know, I want to trust, that there are no creases in it. Buy an SGC 60+ and you're much more likely to be right.

But, people want liquidity to their investments and are willing to tolerate the sordid history of the trimmed PSA 8 Wagner to maintain the ability of a quick flip to the next customer/collector. It's like I've said about JSA authenticated items -- it doesn't matter if it's real or not; it only matters what James Spence says. And that's a scary place to be.

If your goal is to kill SGC off, and drive prices up for your PSA cards, then starting this post makes a lot of sense. But beware a single monopoly dictating grades and values. Because then quality will lag, people will get pissed off, liquidity will freeze up, and values will drop. You want healthy competition between two or three responsible TPGs. It's a very good thing for our hobby.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I switched from PSA to SGC years ago when I started getting PSA 5s off ebay that had obvious wrinkles or trimming problems. I don't mind an EX card with roundness to the corners, so long as there are no damn creases. I've never been failed by SGC on this front. When I buy a card that I can see centering and corner issues in the scan myself -- I don't need TPG for that -- I want to know, I want to trust, that there are no creases in it. Buy an SGC 60+ and you're much more likely to be right.

But, people want liquidity to their investments and are willing to tolerate the sordid history of the trimmed PSA 8 Wagner to maintain the ability of a quick flip to the next customer/collector. It's like I've said about JSA authenticated items -- it doesn't matter if it's real or not; it only matters what James Spence says. And that's a scary place to be.

If your goal is to kill SGC off, and drive prices up for your PSA cards, then starting this post makes a lot of sense. But beware a single monopoly dictating grades and values. Because then quality will lag, people will get pissed off, liquidity will freeze up, and values will drop. You want healthy competition between two or three responsible TPGs. It's a very good thing for our hobby.

Well said Paul. Also if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times. If you're buying quality items (in all grades) then you're fine. There will always be a market for quality items regardless of SGC/PSA. If there isn't then the hobby has serious issues and no TPG will be your savior.

With that said SGC does a piss poor job being a good competitor to PSA it should be a Coke vs. Pepsi world. Instead its more like Coke vs. Larry's Soda Company of NJ or FL. When you think small as a small business owner you remain small...one has to think big and push for innovation. This isn't something SGC does. PSA however does a bit better job...in this area.

Cheers,

John

[brewing]

I agree John.

I see so much potential in SGC, but it seems they are content with their market share.

FWIW, I came here from the SGC board and once sang their greatness.
I still search for SGC cards, because I can get them cheaper.

[ricktmd]

While it is clear that PSA cards bring higher $ than SGC cards of the same grade the question is why and does it matter to a collector. I believe the psa registry collectors who will pay more for PSA. This is a simple dynamic. Besides spending the time energy and money trying to cross the cards they often don't cross at the same grade so PSA collectors like myself are willing to pay more for PSA over SGC. One other factor is that PSA is part of a larger company that grades coins stamps etc.. They are a more substantial stable company which makes there cards safer investments as well. PSA is a pain to deal with but I think there grading while sometimes a head scratcher is fairly consistent. SGC is cheaper and easier to deal with that is for sure. In my opinion SGC over grades and grades items like S74 silks terribly. On top of all that the recent fiasco with the Standard Biscuit cards where they graded crudely cut strip cards with a lame standard biscuit stamped back as 84's that went to auction shows they are not trustworthy with authenticity. I have nothing against them but the standard biscuit fakes would never have been graded at PSA. I know SGC is popular and I get why. It just makes more sense from an investment standpoint with pricey vintage cards to collect PSA
Rick Clemens

[nolemmings]

While it is clear that PSA cards bring higher $ than SGC cards of the same grade the question is why and does it matter to a collector. I believe the psa registry collectors who will pay more for PSA. This is a simple dynamic. Besides spending the time energy and money trying to cross the cards they often don't cross at the same grade so PSA collectors like myself are willing to pay more for PSA over SGC.

While I agree with this part of your post, I do not with the rest. The Standard Biscuit fiasco, as you call it, was close enough where it is at least somewhat excusable, IMO. The cards were not "crudely cut" at all; if anything, they were a bit too sharp. The "lame stamped back" was apparently close enough to fool you, as you bought one of the cards.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=biscuit I don't for a minute have trouble believing they could have passed through PSA as well, as all the companies have had trouble with this set for years. PSA is the company that graded a reprint Ruth rookie with a numeric grade!! Talk about being on alert as to what to look for in one of the most prestigious cards in the hobby and then blowing it.

As for PSA grading coins, they are absolutely horrid at grading PX7 discs, so that that additional area of ""expertise" certainly has not translated.

So the debate can continue on investors vs. collectors etc, and how SGC seems unable or unwilling to expand its brand, but their ability to prove authenticity is at least as strong, and in my view stronger, than PSA.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by ricktmd

I have nothing against them but the standard biscuit fakes would never have been graded at PSA.

I'm pretty sure PSA graded fake Babe Ruth Sporting Life rookies a few years back.

They all make mistakes.

Tony

[ricktmd]

The standard biscuit fiasco was surprising. I bought one of the mistakenly graded W575 strip cards from a reputable dealer on ebay who took the card back. It was not a perfect scan . As soon as I received the card and looked at it , it was obvious that two out of the 4 sides were hand cut with small hanging pieces and jagged edges . You could see them with a magnifying glass or a loop. It was as clear as can be and any competent grader should have caught that one , not to mention the several SGC graded. I posted about the cards when I was a bidder and thought no way that if they were altered it would get through SGC or the dealer who sold them. I am sure people have had bad experiences with PSA that could be similar. That experience along with the fact the SGC cards don't normally cross and sell for less money is the reason I posted and agree with Kevin. I do understand why people like SGC . I just think Kevin is right about the values and I am just hesitant due to a bad experience
Rick Clemens

[Peter_Spaeth]

It may be hindsight, but the stamps weren't 100 percent convincing either.

[nolemmings]

It is hindsight, Peter. The 1921 SBs are a fairly obscure issue with a woefully incomplete checklist. The backs of these cards, which may not even be fakes or at least may be original blank-backs with added stamps, are not 100% convincing when held up next to one with a real back. Still, that is perhaps the best stamp I have seen--most just have text and not design, and while I agree it should have been caught, the breakdown here is far more understandable than letting a reprint m101 Ruth rookie get through.

Rick, I'm sorry for your bad experience and understand your PSA preference, although I don't share it. I just wanted to point out one last thing on those Standard Biscuits, and that's my opinion that your finding some jagged edges is nothing conclusive. I do not believe that shows them to be hand-cut, and W575s are often found machine cut. Machine cut cards can have jagged edges--here are two of several PSA cards I own that show this--note the view from the backs:


I believe that certain B&W issues can have high-grade cards that retain these little fragments, which are then worn down or off as the card is handled. Now Standard Biscuits are very rarely seen in high grade, which maybe should have alerted SGC right there. But having a little "hair" on the edges doesn't mean they were trimmed or hand-cut, and wouldn't by itself tell a grader that these were strip cards (if they were).

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6). And there appears to be some edge wear on the top border as well, although it could just be my eyes. If it's edge wear, then that knocks it down to a 60 (5). IMO, the seller made out like a bandit on this card. No way it's worth $1026. The buyer obviously bought the holder and not the card.

Looks like a PSA 4.5 to me. Two soft bottom corners, poor centering and a stain in the middle of the top white border.

[mrvster]

Sgc are staffed with some very experienced graders...........TOP NOTCH STAFF

[Peter_Spaeth]

Todd good points. What it comes down to I guess is at least at the level of fees we are paying now, mistakes are going to happen and some of it is going to get through as long as the scumbags of the hobby set out to commit fraud. One wonders how these folks live with themselves.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Looks like a PSA 4.5 to me. Two soft bottom corners, poor centering and a stain in the middle of the top white border.

I'm with you Bob, ridiculous...

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Looks like a PSA 4.5 to me. Two soft bottom corners, poor centering and a stain in the middle of the top white border.

Please folks, take another look at this card.... A 7, really?? This is ridiculous

[benchod]

You can find over graded cards in all TPG's holders.
How did PSA miss the brown stain on this highly prominent card? Besides the super narrow side borders? This Ruth must be the "skinny" variation

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ouch.

[skelly]

I will agree that the Walsh is a very weak seven. With that said, I have a few very sharp SGC 5.5 ( 70 ) and 6 ( 80 ) cards that would easily pass for near mint / mint if raw. I don't really keep track of PSA cards, although I realize they are the "original" / "top dog" or whatever term you want to put on them. this has been a rather long thread, so I'll make a couple points and then bow out.

* It was mentioned by a previous poster that SGC might be moving to Florida. I would think this could be a mistake. SGC has some loyal collectors in the Northeast, and anytime I go into their office, they seem rather busy with people dropping off and picking up submissions. They seem like they have a nice thing going in New Jersey, I can't imagine that the move to Florida would see the same "walk in" business.

*As a collector and not an investor, I know it has been said a million times, but there is something that really makes the SGC cards pop with the black inserts, I just don't feel the same about PSA. I would have to think that someone looking to put together nice mid / upper grade raw sets could do very well buying sgc 5's and 6's at good prices and then popping them out of the cases. I can't speak for pre-war, but for 50's thru 70's stuff, I will admit that PSA does sell a little stronger in many cases.

* Finally and also mentioned before, the whole thing about joining PSA just to allow them to grade your stuff... I'll pass. My wife already thinks the whole card thing is a little weird. I mean if it was the other way around and my wife got her shoes graded, had to pay a place just to let them grade her shoes, I would find that a little extreme to be fair. Not a great analogy, but I think you know what I'm getting at. Why wouldn't PSA just let anyone send their stuff in and let members get a discounted rate, be eligible for specials, etc. I do agree with a previous post that a mixed registry would be a good thing. Make it that at least 25% of the set needs to be SGC or some sort of similar criteria.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by benchod

You can find over graded cards in all TPG's holders.
How did PSA miss the brown stain on this highly prominent card? Besides the super narrow side borders? This Ruth must be the "skinny" variation

Absolutely, any grade company is going to make mistakes. But even so, this card is a PSA 6, not an SGC 80. the ratio between PSA and SGC is not even close. SGC would probably give this card a grade of 82-84 knowing them. And even if it was by chance the same grade, the resale value between the two is not even close. I can show you scans of T206s graded SGC 88 that are ridiculous...

[CMIZ5290]

Without opening any future threads, these are enough, please look at VCP, card target, and past auction listings for comparisons between PSA and SGC.....Don't throw up when you do.....

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

. SGC would probably give this card a grade of 82-84 knowing them.

Maybe even a 92, right? Do you think just because you repeat the same BS 100 times that it makes it any more believable? Comeon, Kevin, we get it: you have a strong financial interest in PSA cards selling for as much as possible. And your comments are colored by this.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Maybe even a 92, right? Do you think just because you repeat the same BS 100 times that it makes it any more believable? Comeon, Kevin, we get it: you have a strong financial interest in PSA cards selling for as much as possible. And your comments are colored by this.

You're damn right Jeff. Do you not get it financially??

[CMIZ5290]

I feel an ambush coming on......

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

You're damn right Jeff. Do you not get it financially??

I think for Registry cards PSA sells higher. For cards that people are not foaming at the mouth for to put into their Registry sets there is little difference if any between SGC and PSA -- and personally I pay the same for such cards if they're in PSA or SGC slabs. I have thousands and thousands of Registry cards and they're all, by definition, PSA cards. Anything raw I purchase I send solely to SGC because I like the looks of the holders better, the customer service and the knowledge of the people at SGC more. And I see too many errors with PSA-slabbed cards but that may simply be a function of PSA grading so many more cards. All that being said, I'll be sending in my first submission to PSA in years due solely to their grading certain issues I have which SGC does not grade.

[CMIZ5290]

Fair enough....We can agree to disagree

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I feel an ambush coming on......

Relax, Kevin, you can start 100 threads about how much superior PSA is than SGC. No one listens to you anyway because everyone knows your apparent ability to feed yourself is directly related to the value of your PSA slabs.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Relax, Kevin, you can start 100 threads about how much superior PSA is than SGC. No one listens to you anyway because everyone knows your apparent ability to feed yourself is directly related to the value of your PSA slabs.

Nice...Having said that, prove me wrong with SGC and the difference in their prices compared to PSA....

[CMIZ5290]

You might be right about nobody listening, because it appears that 80% or higher on this forum prefer SGC.....Why I have absolutely no clue....

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Nice...Having said that, prove me wrong with SGC and the difference in their prices compared to PSA....

Did you not read what I just wrote? In non-Registry cards there is no difference because those are cards purchased by card collectors rather than plastic slab collectors. The majority of people who are on Net 54 collect cards and not the slabs. And they favor SGC for a reason.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Did you not read what I just wrote? In non-Registry cards there is no difference because those are cards purchased by card collectors rather than plastic slab collectors. The majority of people who are on Net 54 collect cards and not the slabs. And they favor SGC for a reason.

I did read what you wrote. They dont value resale in their investment? Why does anyone collect then? Don't you want to improve your collection? I wonder if D. Hall is like this with coins?? Jeff- Everybody wants to make a profit on their investment, slabbed or raw....

[nolemmings]

"Why I have absolutely no clue.... "

On that we can agree.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Did you not read what I just wrote? In non-Registry cards there is no difference because those are cards purchased by card collectors rather than plastic slab collectors. The majority of people who are on Net 54 collect cards and not the slabs. And they favor SGC for a reason.

At some point, they have have to do something with their cards, right?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I did read what you wrote. They dont value resale in their investment? Why does anyone collect then? I wonder if D. Hall is like this with coins??

Registry cards. Just Registry cards. And I know you can't seem to understand this but some people collect because they enjoy the cards and not the idea that the plastic may be worth more someday.

As for someone with a 7 figure collection I can tell you I don't think twice about what the PSA cards will bring on resale compared to my SGC cards. Because the majority of the cards I own are low pop and difficult to find in either SGC or PSA slabs. So they will resell for the same price regardless of the slab they are in.

Honestly, domt you think your type of collector is more often found on the PSA boards than here? With the constant discussion of the Registry, submissions being returned and resale value of Registry cards? The reason why 80% of rhe people here favor SGC is because their collecting focus IS NOT THE REGISTRY BUT THE CARDS THEMSELVES.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Registry cards. Just Registry cards. And I know you can't seem to understand this but some people collect because they enjoy the cards and not the idea that the plastic may be worth more someday.

As for someone with a 7 figure collection I can tell you I don't think twice about what the PSA cards will bring on resale compared to my SGC cards. Because the majority of the cards I own are low pop and difficult to find in either SGC or PSA slabs. So they will resell for the same price regardless of the slab they are in.

Fair enough, thanks Jeff...

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

They dont value resale in their investment?

I think Jeff and others will be fine with their purchases.

Also as a person with a $7 dollar collection I too am not worried about resell but am a bit concerned about cab fare.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

I think Jeff and others will be fine with their purchases.

Also as a person with a $7 dollar collection I too am not worried about resell but am a bit concerned about cab fare.

I already told you I'm paying for our next dinner. No need to sell your 1958 Topps PSA 8 Don Mossi for $40.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I already told you I'm paying for our next dinner. No need to sell your 1958 Topps PSA 8 Don Mossi for $40.

It's actually a PSA 8 MC but it's totally under graded Jeff looks like a 10.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

It's actually a PSA 8 MC but it's totally under graded Jeff looks like a 10.

I bet it is...

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I bet it is...

Actually it isn't. I just got caught up in salesman BS over hyping a card that's exactly what it is, a PSA 8 with issues. Sorry Kevin.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Actually it isn't....sorry I just got caught up in salesman BS over hyping a card that's exactly what is a PSA 8 with issues. Sorry Kevin.

nice try light bulb head...

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

nice try light bulb head...

A bald joke, that's your come back? Good to see your lack of originality is consistent across the board and isn't just found in your BST and TPG threads.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

nice try light bulb head...

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now you did it.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

A bald joke, that's your come back? Good to see your lack or originality is consistent across the board and isn't just found in your BST and TPG threads.

You're right , can't wait to see you at the National, cheers....

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

You're right , can't wait to see you at the National, cheers....

LOL, you're such a tool, I'm really glad you're around Kevin don't ever change.

[CMIZ5290]

1

[1880nonsports]

and thousands and thousands a bit beyond my somewhat pedestrian accumulation - but what he said.......

"I think for Registry cards PSA sells higher. For cards that people are not foaming at the mouth for to put into their Registry sets there is little difference if any between SGC and PSA -- and personally I pay the same for such cards if they're in PSA or SGC slabs. I have thousands and thousands of Registry cards and they're all, by definition, PSA cards. Anything raw I purchase I send solely to SGC because I like the looks of the holders better, the customer service and the knowledge of the people at SGC more. And I see too many errors with PSA-slabbed cards but that may simply be a function of PSA grading so many more cards. All that being said, I'll be sending in my first submission to PSA in years due solely to their grading certain issues I have which SGC does not grade. "
__________________
One final thought from me would be that PSA allows for front and back paperlosss all too often without it being reflected in the grade - something I'm less than a fan of and an important factor in my staying with SGC along with continuity. That said my main disappointment with SGC is that other people are seemingly dissatisfied with certain aspects of SGC that could be remedied - so much so that they have gravitated to PSA.
I prefer SGC remain healthy as competition spurs improvement and growth - to that end I wish they would take a more responsive and aggressive approach to upgrading their site and their product. I think they need to be more proactive - maybe spend a few dollars and as was said earlier - engage the most active targets with some kind of social media push or raise their profile. I'm reminded of the "we try harder" slogan........
Endless repeating the refrain that PSA is so much better than SGC tagline over and over does get a little old - whether it's the "laughable" SGC grading or the "are you kidding me" anecdotal sales prices used in attempt to beat a dead horse. Collectors will gravitate to whichever TPG aligns with their views of a proper grading and authentication system - their concerns after cost mostly driven by the card and not the commodity value - the seller gravitates to whomever at the time delivers the more saleable product.