Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by japhi

The grandstanding on this thread is a little over the top - one guy claims he would spend night and day trying to find the history of the card. My guess is that guy would sell the card private and wash his lands, like the large majority of folks on this board would do.

If you have anymore guesses in the future Matt, will you at least try to make them educated guesses?

[GaryPassamonte]

This thread starts out questioning the sentence of a profligate lawbreaker and ends up berating an individual for not returning an item, not legally proven to be stolen, and finally to trust the same legal system to help him recoup his possible losses from who knows who. Yeah, sounds like a good idea. I would say this would be a time for caution, not haste.

[travrosty]

If it was Burdick's Wagner from the Met instead of this card, and otherwise the same circumstances, would we even be discussing loopholes on how to keep it?

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by travrosty

If it was Burdick's Wagner from the Met instead of this card, and otherwise the same circumstances, would we even be discussing loopholes on how to keep it?

Of course not, if it were anyone else the board would be crucifying them. Not that that's necessarily acceptable either, just pointing out the blatant double standard.

I mean looking for legal loopholes for ways Leon could keep the card? Seriously? The hypocrisy is pretty slimy.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by poorlydrawncat

Of course not, if it were anyone else the board would be crucifying them. Not that that's acceptable either, just pointing out the blatant double standard.

I mean looking for legal loopholes for ways Leon could keep the card? Seriously? The hypocrisy is pretty slimy.

I agree, there wouldnt be any discussion on how someone could keep it, it would go back to the met, period, end of story. Working out some 'deal' is foreign to me as there is a nypl stamp on the back of the card.

[Exhibitman]

It is a conspiracy if I help him steal it. If I am presented with a situation like this and the client has a contested right to keep an item he purchased at a public auction in good faith I am not conspiring to do anything if I advise him of his rights and suggest that he put the alleged owner to the test in court.

Some other assumptions here about how the item came to Leon are just that: assumptions. Until the library and Leon sort it out, which is what's going to happen apparently since the item was pulled, all the vitriol is premature. Fun but potentially wrong.

As for "loopholes" that is such nonsense. It is either legal or not.

[jmk59]

I agree with Adam. When it's our interests that are making their way through the legal system, it's about our rights and testing contested positions in court. When it's someone else's interests making their way through the legal system, now it's seeking loopholes.

People go to court every day for trivial items. When it comes to 10's of thousands of dollars, those who think ownership should simply be surrendered are largely those who don't own the item.

It likely won't get to that, but if Leon (or NYPL, for that matter) end up using the legal system to sort out ownership, there's no wrong in that.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by jmk59

I agree with Adam. When it's our interests that are making their way through the legal system, it's about our rights and testing contested positions in court. When it's someone else's interests making their way through the legal system, now it's seeking loopholes.

People go to court every day for trivial items. When it comes to 10's of thousands of dollars, those who think ownership should simply be surrendered are largely those who don't own the item.

It likely won't get to that, but if Leon (or NYPL, for that matter) end up using the legal system to sort out ownership, there's no wrong in that.

Ok I have a huge issue with this. You are conflating legal right with moral right. They are two different things.

I can steal a million dollars and get off because they didn't read me my miranda rights. Does that mean that taking that million dollars is suddenly ok? If someone rapes someone and the statutes of limitations expire before they come to trial, does that make the action ok? No, just because someone has the law on their side doesn't mean their actions were morally acceptable.

To hold onto a stolen item by virtue of a legal technicality would be morally wrong wrong wrong and wrong no matter how you try and rationalize it to yourself. It doesn't suddenly become acceptable just because there's no legal recourse.

You'd be surprised, but there are a lot of people out there who would return the item without trying to leverage the legal system to keep it, just on the basis of it being the morally right thing to do. Then again there are a lot of people out there who wouldn't do the right thing and have a hard time understanding someone who would...

[ibuysportsephemera]

I like Leon...and I like Net54 even more. For all those critical or disappointed with Leon, why don't you find another sand box to play in? Leon is far nicer with the lynch mob types in this thread than I would be if I was the owner. I think most come here for enjoyment of the hobby but there is a group who always seem to be bickering with others. Let's remember who keeps this forum going.

Jeff

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

I like Leon...and I like Net54 even more. For all those critical or disappointed with Leon, why don't you find another sand box to play in? Leon is far nicer with the lynch mob types in this thread than I would be if I was the owner. I think most come here for enjoyment of the hobby but there is a group who always seem to be bickering with others. Let's remember who keeps this forum going.

Jeff

What keeps any forum going is its users, and Leon knows that, he's not naive. And the fact that he doesn't rule like a tyrant is what has made this forum successful. Forums run with an iron fist never last long, it just creates an exodus to a new forum.

But onto the real issue. Just because Leon runs a website that you like, that shouldn't be enough for you to sacrifice your principles. Otherwise why even bother having principles at all if you're only going to apply them when it's convenient for you?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Let's remember who keeps this forum going.

Jeff

The countless collectors/members and advertisers. Not mention many members have been a part of this community before it was "Leon's Sandbox" as you call it. This community is that a community. If this was all about Leon it wouldn't be a community it would be a twitter or Facebook page.

Jeff FYI known Leon for years. Done business with him, driven him to shows, paid for dinners big and small, talked cards, politics you name it. He even sent Jeff Lichtman and I picture of the cover of the catalog to get our feedback. This isn't some cyber bully picking on the great Leon this a fellow collector calling him out. Perhaps I could have done this in private but that's hypocritical of me. If I can call out others here why should he get a pass. I'm not saying he's an evil person just think he dropped the ball here instead of manning up he's resorted to name calling and gathering his minions.

Bottom line a few weeks ago I was a good guy, and potential bidder for him. The minute I called out this card. As well as the hypocrisy of taking gifts from Bill Mastro while claiming to do more about fraud than 99.9% of the collecting community.

That day I became and "idiot", sorry if I feel Leon's tag line of "if you do wrong in this hobby I'm going to be your worst enemy" sounds better than "if you do wrong in this hobby I'm going to be your worst enemy, unless there are gift bags".

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by poorlydrawncat

Of course not, if it were anyone else the board would be crucifying them. Not that that's acceptable either, just pointing out the blatant double standard.

I mean looking for legal loopholes for ways Leon could keep the card? Seriously? The hypocrisy is pretty slimy.

I agree with this. Take this same set of circumstances and each and every comment made then replace Leon with....Dan McKee, Jeff Lichtman anyone for that matter including myself and that would be a good time to be in the pitchforks and torches business. Might even make a sale or two Leon himself.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

I agree with this. Take this same set of circumstances and each and every comment made then replace Leon with....Dan McKee, Jeff Lichtman anyone for that matter including myself and that would be a good time to be in the pitchforks and torches business. Might even make a sale or two Leon himself.

You just sent a chill down my spine Wonka! Jeff is much tougher than me, let him take the brunt of it.