Joe Orlando is lying fakes flips look real..

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This is a terrible analogy...as the preponderance of fakes and knockoffs will most certainly deter many from even buying in the first place.

I strongly and respectfully disagree. Anyone so inclined to buy an expensive sports card likely would be led by their desire to do the appropriate homework first. Any reputable auction house or PSA authorized dealer (707, etc.) would be a virtual guarantee of zero exposure to these fakes, fairly close to the aforementioned Rolex store-- the AH would make it right as they are concerned with longterm business and reputation, and the PSA authorized dealer would likely have a return policy and be able to spot a fake.

I am living proof that fakes do not necessarily deter a buyer. When I first decided to buy sports cards, I knew there would be fakes-- like with any desired item. I learned who the trusted sellers were and made sure to have the TPG review the cards after purchase for complete peace of mind. I was not deterred at all. I merely did the homework anyone should do with anything before spending money.

Bottom line, one can choose to react however they want to the existence of fakes. Some collectors find avoiding them a doable task, one that does not at all get in the way of enjoying the collecting they love.

I agree with Leon: that a card is being faked speaks volumes as to its desirability and the demand for it. Avoiding those fakes requires that a buyer seek out trustworthy points of sale. I would wager that the likes of REA and the biggest dealers in the hobby are as certain to ensure the buyer from fakes as the retail stores of Rolex, Gucci, and Ralph Lauren are to ensure their customers.

It's worth noting that in the face of these fakes, the card market is doing very well, and new collectors just embarking on their collections are connecting with fellow collectors every day-- great things for the hobby.

[Rollingstone206]

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[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

Sean1125 just finished telling us he got caught up with forgeries. I can reasonably see someone ("Anyone") at a card show getting tricked by them at this level of sophistication. And, obviously others have been duped by these expensive forgeries or this thread wouldn't exist.

Now you're taking it a step further preaching exposure guarantees of Auction Houses and PSA authorized dealers yourself? For example the a dealer or AH might claim a card swap was done after the sale, same goes for PSA dealers, and PSA themself. It's a pretty hard thing to prove as a buyer. I know your treading on thin ice speaking absolutes on this subject.

right I agree, when it comes to money in life, people owing it or a dispute...is that the kind of thing that gets resolved easily? Always assume once you spend your money it will be hard to get back if you buy a fake and your expectations will match real life...

[glynparson]

but he is an admitted newer dealer and rather new to the hobby, comparing his knowledge to that of Levi and Jimmy, or Rob Lifson, or many others is a disservice to those very knowledgable men. Sean may get to their level someday but I doubt he thinks he is in their league as far as knowledge. A lot of cash does not equal knowledge.. Again not a slight at Sean but an endorsement of the others advanced knowledge. That said i believe he has demonstrated integrity and if he did get taken I am confident he would make the buyer whole.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

Sean1125 just finished telling us he got caught up with forgeries. I can reasonably see someone ("Anyone") at a card show getting tricked by them at this level of sophistication. And, obviously others have been duped by these expensive forgeries or this thread wouldn't exist.

Now you're taking it a step further preaching exposure guarantees of Auction Houses and PSA authorized dealers yourself? For example the a dealer or AH might claim a card swap was done after the sale, same goes for PSA dealers, and PSA themself. It's a pretty hard thing to prove as a buyer. I know your treading on thin ice speaking absolutes on this subject.

I was duped the first time I tried to step outside of my area of expertise. At a National in Chicago several years ago I bought a Sport King Ruth and a 33 Goudey Ruth from a friendly gentleman who came by my table. The Sport King was real and the flip was in the PSA 3 Goudey holder. I was able to sell the Sport King for within $150 of the price I paid for both cards, so that should have been a tipoff that something was wrong with his offer. They should have been worth far more than I paid. I felt it was a cheap price for such a good and thorough education. I'm still waiting for that chap to return and try it again, his image is burned in my brain.

When dealing with pre war purchases I now refer to a second opinion whether the cards are in a PSA holder or raw.

[glynparson]

does not even look exactly the same it should not need an explanation just use your eyes. They are clearly different and sealed completely different and this is easily identifiable in a scan.

[Jdoggs]

Originally Posted by glynparson

does not even look exactly the same it should not need an explanation just use your eyes. They are clearly different and sealed completely different and this is easily identifiable in a scan.

Ok then why don't you explain how you can see they are sealed completely different in a scan?

[glynparson]

see that the top fits over the bottom piece as opposed to being sealed on the side this is clearly evident in the obverse scans of the cards. Sorry, I can not help you if you can not see this.

[glynparson]

it may be tougher to tell based on the style of slab, but i find it not to difficult for psa. please note psa is still returning some cards in the old slabs, guess using up old stock first.

[Jdoggs]

Originally Posted by glynparson

see that the top fits over the bottom piece as opposed to being sealed on the side this is clearly evident in the obverse scans of the cards. Sorry, I can not help you if you can not see this.

thanks i can see this and this is good to know.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I strongly and respectfully disagree. Anyone so inclined to buy an expensive sports card likely would be led by their desire to do the appropriate homework first. Any reputable auction house or PSA authorized dealer (707, etc.) would be a virtual guarantee of zero exposure to these fakes, fairly close to the aforementioned Rolex store-- the AH would make it right as they are concerned with longterm business and reputation, and the PSA authorized dealer would likely have a return policy and be able to spot a fake.

I am living proof that fakes do not necessarily deter a buyer. When I first decided to buy sports cards, I knew there would be fakes-- like with any desired item. I learned who the trusted sellers were and made sure to have the TPG review the cards after purchase for complete peace of mind. I was not deterred at all. I merely did the homework anyone should do with anything before spending money.

Bottom line, one can choose to react however they want to the existence of fakes. Some collectors find avoiding them a doable task, one that does not at all get in the way of enjoying the collecting they love.

I agree with Leon: that a card is being faked speaks volumes as to its desirability and the demand for it. Avoiding those fakes requires that a buyer seek out trustworthy points of sale. I would wager that the likes of REA and the biggest dealers in the hobby are as certain to ensure the buyer from fakes as the retail stores of Rolex, Gucci, and Ralph Lauren are to ensure their customers.

It's worth noting that in the face of these fakes, the card market is doing very well, and new collectors just embarking on their collections are connecting with fellow collectors every day-- great things for the hobby.

Well this is why we have communities like this to voice our own opinions.

You can walk into a "rolex" store...or a "coach" store and presumably you will be pretty assured you are getting the genuine article. What about how in China there are whole knockoff Apple stores that look identical to the real deal...yet are selling knockoffs.

When any of these items are then sold on the secondary market things can get dicier for the prospective buyer. At this point it becomes prudent to do your due diligence or you may get ripped off.

You can't just walk into a t206 store and order a presumably authentic psa 5 lobert. All available loberts have been preowned...or newly created/fake. So it now is up to the buyer to do his due diligence...or as many do hire A TPG'er to give you this assurance...and we all know this is not a sure thing either.

I got into collecting as a kid with the topps cards of the 50's-70's...these days I'd be reluctant to buy some raw modern cards because there are so many fakes and some are really really good!

So for me...the corruption in the hobby has dimmed my enthusiasm a bit...this is just me.

And I would bet that some who try to enter the hobby...or any hobby for that matter only to immediately get ripped off...may think twice about trying again.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You can't just walk into a t206 store and order a presumably authentic psa 5 lobert. All available loberts have been preowned. So it now is up to the buyer to do his due dilligence...or as many do hire A TPG'er to give you this assurance...and we all know this is not a sure thing either.

Exactly. The provenance of 40 to 100+ year old cards is a lot different than Rolexes coming straight from the factory.

With that said, I'm not convinced that PSA adequately trains or vets their dealers for counterfeit detection of holders or cards that show up on the secondary market.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I strongly and respectfully disagree. Anyone so inclined to buy an expensive sports card likely would be led by their desire to do the appropriate homework first. Any reputable auction house or PSA authorized dealer (707, etc.) would be a virtual guarantee of zero exposure to these fakes, fairly close to the aforementioned Rolex store-- the AH would make it right as they are concerned with longterm business and reputation, and the PSA authorized dealer would likely have a return policy and be able to spot a fake.

I am living proof that fakes do not necessarily deter a buyer. When I first decided to buy sports cards, I knew there would be fakes-- like with any desired item. I learned who the trusted sellers were and made sure to have the TPG review the cards after purchase for complete peace of mind. I was not deterred at all. I merely did the homework anyone should do with anything before spending money.

Bottom line, one can choose to react however they want to the existence of fakes. Some collectors find avoiding them a doable task, one that does not at all get in the way of enjoying the collecting they love.

I agree with Leon: that a card is being faked speaks volumes as to its desirability and the demand for it. Avoiding those fakes requires that a buyer seek out trustworthy points of sale. I would wager that the likes of REA and the biggest dealers in the hobby are as certain to ensure the buyer from fakes as the retail stores of Rolex, Gucci, and Ralph Lauren are to ensure their customers.

It's worth noting that in the face of these fakes, the card market is doing very well, and new collectors just embarking on their collections are connecting with fellow collectors every day-- great things for the hobby.

Yes, one can avoid fakes, by exercising the type of diligence Matt describes. But no, one cannot avoid doctored cards.

[Rollingstone206]

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[Jdoggs]

Are the new PSA cases tamper free?

[Rollingstone206]

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[Rollingstone206]

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[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

Can someone explain sonic sealing?

I think they yell at the slabs then the slabs are so embarrassed they seal themselves.