Joe Orlando is lying fakes flips look real..

[MW1]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Thanks for posting this Evan, I hope you haven't been dissuaded from sharing any more info you may have. The above is the key point to me. I can't tell the difference between these slabs.

It's been pointed out in this thread that there are obvious signs these flips have been compromised, if so I'd love to know what they are.

There really is nothing more nefarious transpiring here than PSA holders being opened and fake flips/cards being inserted. Use your powers of observation. Look carefully at the edges of the holder. Look at the contact points. Look at the four small slots that become cloudy when the holder is pried apart. Look at the edges where a sharp object has initially been inserted. The signs are all there. If you still don't see signs of tampering, look at the card itself. And if that doesn't work, pay close attention to the price. If it's 60% or less of retail and you're buying a PSA 10 or low population PSA 9, it's almost certainly a scam. Finally, if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by MW1

... if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

why is this?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

why is this?

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

[bbcemporium]

Originally Posted by MW1

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

I'm pretty sure he also "makes" t206 Cobbs and 33 Goudey Ruths and Gehrigs.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

The scammer, in my many conversations with him, told me he didn't do pre-war as the other high end cards that are post war are much easier to pass off.

He might make T206 Cobbs or Ruth Goudeys but that isn't the majority of what he does. Also, it seems his favorite, or one of his favorite playgrounds, is Craigslist...

[bbcemporium]

I find it a little odd this guy is having multiple conversations with people within the hobby discussing the fraud he is perpetrating. Maybe he just wants to brag about his work.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I've seen it mentioned several times now, but how does buying from a reputable dealer solve the problem? What’s to stop a reputable dealer from unknowingly buying one of these fakes for re-sell thinking it's legit?

Edited to add: Are reputable dealers immune to scams or something?

[MattyC]

I'd say for two reasons...

Reputable dealers and PSA Authorized dealers tend to have a better eye at spotting fakes than the average collector. One must be armed with considerable knowledge and experience to spot these fakes and veteran reputable dealers of PSA cards stand to have that knowledge and experience moreso than a random seller on Craigslist or eBay. Is it possible one can slip by the goalie, so to speak, sure, but then...

A reputable dealer stands to care more about his reputation and longterm business than a one-time score; a no-hassle return policy goes a long way when we are talking about these fake slabs.

I don't think anyone is asserting veteran reputable dealers are 100% inoculated against this scam, but in the interest of mitigation before and after a scam they are a prudent choice.

PS: like the sig line, very funny!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bbcemporium

I find it a little odd this guy is having multiple conversations with people within the hobby discussing the fraud he is perpetrating. Maybe he just wants to brag about his work.

I agree. I don't know how many people he reached out to but I know Evan and I had a lot of conversations with him. He uses one of those phone jack devices that can't be traced. One time when he called me I tried to conference in the Secret Service covertly and it didn't work. I tried though....Yes, I believe he is somewhat of a braggart.

He uses pawns to sell his stuff and never lets anyone too close. Buying from a very known and trusted source is a good way (not foolproof) to avoid his fraud.

He preys on the greedy and inexperienced. As has been said, when you see a high end card being sold for less than half it's value, be very, very wary.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Leon

The scammer, in my many conversations with him, told me he didn't do pre-war as the other high end cards that are post war are much easier to pass off.

He might make T206 Cobbs or Ruth Goudeys but that isn't the majority of what he does. Also, it seems his favorite, or one of his favorite playgrounds, is Craigslist...

This makes sense, aging a forgery of a pre-war card would take some extra work that he would not need to do in the post war card world. Guys, thanks so much for sharing this information, it's scary stuff & the knowledge shared helps a lot.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by brob28

This makes sense, aging a forgery of a pre-war card would take some extra work that he would not need to do in the post war card world. Guys, thanks so much for sharing this information, it's scary stuff & the knowledge shared helps a lot.

I have seen a 33 Gehrig in 8 that is fake also had other cards in the purchase 69 Reggie 9 and a few others... In fact I had purchased it and needed to get a refund. Had to get the FBI involved.

The flips under a LOUPE look different. They have laser dots that normal flips don;'t have. This was probably 10 or 11 months ago. Not sure what they have done now.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MW1

There really is nothing more nefarious transpiring here than PSA holders being opened and fake flips/cards being inserted. Use your powers of observation. Look carefully at the edges of the holder. Look at the contact points. Look at the four small slots that become cloudy when the holder is pried apart. Look at the edges where a sharp object has initially been inserted. The signs are all there. If you still don't see signs of tampering, look at the card itself. And if that doesn't work, pay close attention to the price. If it's 60% or less of retail and you're buying a PSA 10 or low population PSA 9, it's almost certainly a scam. Finally, if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

what if offering 85% of the price or 80%.....you really got to stop focusing on 60% of the price....everyone out to save a dollar and lots of people wll pay 80% of market price...

If you buy a PSA graded card from an auction house and it turns out to be fake is there any recourse with PSA or the AH?

[Rollingstone206]

...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

If these scans are showing two different cards with the same cert number, then this thread is extremely disturbing to say the least. The alleged fakes look very real and the holders do not appear to be tampered with in my opinion.

Between this and the rampant problem of card doctoring, any collector who would choose to tie up a lot of money in high dollar PSA cards needs to have their heads examined.

[MattyC]

End of the day, the proliferation of knock-off Rolexes and Hermes bags does nothing to tarnish the luster, allure, and desirability of the real thing.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MattyC

End of the day, the proliferation of knock-off Rolexes and Hermes bags does nothing to tarnish the luster, allure, and desirability of the real thing.

This is a terrible analogy...as the preponderance of fakes and knockoffs will most certainly deter many from even buying in the first place.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This is a terrible analogy...as the preponderance of fakes and knockoffs will most certainly deter many from even buying in the first place.

I politely disagree and agree with MattyC. I have never personally heard someone say "I am not buying a Rolex because of all of the fakes." On the contrary it could be argued that since they are being faked more people want real ones. They (real ones) must be really good if they are being faked.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This is a terrible analogy...as the preponderance of fakes and knockoffs will most certainly deter many from even buying in the first place.

I strongly and respectfully disagree. Anyone so inclined to buy an expensive sports card likely would be led by their desire to do the appropriate homework first. Any reputable auction house or PSA authorized dealer (707, etc.) would be a virtual guarantee of zero exposure to these fakes, fairly close to the aforementioned Rolex store-- the AH would make it right as they are concerned with longterm business and reputation, and the PSA authorized dealer would likely have a return policy and be able to spot a fake.

I am living proof that fakes do not necessarily deter a buyer. When I first decided to buy sports cards, I knew there would be fakes-- like with any desired item. I learned who the trusted sellers were and made sure to have the TPG review the cards after purchase for complete peace of mind. I was not deterred at all. I merely did the homework anyone should do with anything before spending money.

Bottom line, one can choose to react however they want to the existence of fakes. Some collectors find avoiding them a doable task, one that does not at all get in the way of enjoying the collecting they love.

I agree with Leon: that a card is being faked speaks volumes as to its desirability and the demand for it. Avoiding those fakes requires that a buyer seek out trustworthy points of sale. I would wager that the likes of REA and the biggest dealers in the hobby are as certain to ensure the buyer from fakes as the retail stores of Rolex, Gucci, and Ralph Lauren are to ensure their customers.

It's worth noting that in the face of these fakes, the card market is doing very well, and new collectors just embarking on their collections are connecting with fellow collectors every day-- great things for the hobby.