Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Probstein is crooked. His auctions are crooked. All the vomitous excuses listed here don't change that.

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

[bbeck]

Probstein is all about the mighty dollar, no matter how small, plain and simple. Pretty sad business model with zero class, built around pure greed and ego. He could care less about shilling, it's all about the money. I came to this realization after an encounter with him after an ebay sale. In the end, he kept the few extra dollars that he was not entitled to. In reality, I actually won, he has to look at himself in the mirror everyday. Huge bummer for Probstein.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

I hear ya, David. I don't think much of probstein for just sitting back in this situation, seems shitty imo. He could at least put on a show for us and act like he somewhat cares...it could save the net54 community multiple threads and hours wasted going over the same stuff that never changes. Appease us, damn it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1952boyntoncollector]

For Argument sake..

lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400

lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..

the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

[packs]

That line of thinking still isn't making sense to me. Your max bid is not the price you're willing to pay. At least for me it isn't. My max bid is the most I want to pay for a card. I'm willing to pay less.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

That line of thinking still isn't making sense to me. Your max bid is not the price you're willing to pay. At least for me it isn't. My max bid is the most I want to pay for a card. I'm willing to pay less.

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less (whether by open and obvious reserve or shady shilling) than the price that it appears you are willing to pay which appears to be the max price you wanted to pay..

[packs]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less (whether by open and obvious reserve or shady shilling) than the price that it appears you are willing to pay which appears to be the max price you wanted to pay..

The seller is willing to sell it for whatever it sells for at auction. That is the virtue of an auction. There is no set price. I really don't understand your POV that shilling up to a max bid is the same as paying what you were willing to pay. You know as well as I do that you set a max bid in the hopes that you'll pay less. So to me your argument doesn't hold water.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less ...

Of course they are, otherwise they would have either put a reserve on the item or had a minimum starting price. It is arguably and act of fraud since the rules of the auction (no reserve, no minimum bid) have changed post facto. Hence one of the reasons shilling auctions is considered an act of fraud in most jurisdictions.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

For Argument sake..



lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400



lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..



the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

A lot of "what if" games and analogies going on in this thread. Instead of seeing who's on what side and proving how wrong shilling is and what it could/does to our hobby, why don't we try to come up with a master plan? First off, maybe Leon could ban him from this board permanently. Second, we could round up 100 or so net54ers and we could all email or contact eBay and gripe about the situation...it might not matter, but at least we aren't stuck in a forum smacking each other around about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

For Argument sake..

lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400

lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..

the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

this sounds like another...recent thread? And the OP's answer surprised me?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

I try to get it cheaper than 400...if seller says..i am firm on 400...I am in no rush and will wait for my price....then if I am ready to pay 400 I will have to pay 400....

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?

Hey leave us card doctors out of it. If the shillers can steal money and nobody cares we should be able to also.

By the way anybody looking for a Blue front 58 Hank Aaron, T206 Wagner, or a nice 52 Mantle? Cash only with no returns.

[freakhappy]

So what I get out of this is that shilling is not illegal to eBay, but no doubt unethical. So all one can do is protest Probstein's auctions and eBay in general.



Let me ask everyone here this question...Since eBay seems to not care about this and most everyone here wants Probstein's head, are you also protesting eBay as well, since they are allowing it? If you are not, you are also part of the problem in my eyes.

[ullmandds]

I'd surmise Ebay's and Probsteins evolutions are quite similar. Ebay started off as a great new global marketplace...forever changing the way we transact commerce...eventually greed/profits taking presedence turning ebay into a money taking whore.

I'm sure Probstein has evolved similarly.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?

I'm mainly concerned with shill bidders and their co-conspirators.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm mainly concerned with shill bidders and their co-conspirators.

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow.

Most shill bidders have statutes of limitations which have passed too.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

Scott already told you that you were being silly, but I want to reiterate it. By "do something about it" I mean ban consignors that are shilling their own auctions. Once again, Probstein was given names (eBay usernames and real first and last names) of consignors that were shilling their own auctions. He didn't do anything about it. He continues to do business with them. How about banning them when they're caught, is that a viable solution???

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Scott already told you that you were being silly, but I want to reiterate it. By "do something about it" I mean ban consignors that are shilling their own auctions. Once again, Probstein was given names (eBay usernames and real first and last names) of consignors that were shilling their own auctions. He didn't do anything about it. He continues to do business with them. How about banning them when they're caught, is that a viable solution???

So Pang21 is still consigning cards?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

So Pang21 is still consigning cards?

Since eBay has removed the usernames from feedback, I have no way to know that. But, what I do know is that about two years ago Probstein was made aware of Pank21 (or whatever his name is) and did nothing about it at the time because he was caught AGAIN about a year later.




Here's another similar and more recent thread though...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...id+retractions

Do you REALLY believe Probstein did anything in this situation?

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you REALLY believe Probstein did anything in this situation?

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

Do ANY ebay consignors do this?

[sportscardtheory]

I guess I'm wondering why this thread is about probstein? Do ANY ebay consignors refund shilled auctions, ban shilling accounts and aggressively pursue shillers?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I guess I'm wondering why this thread is about probstein? Do ANY ebay consignors refund shilled auctions, ban shilling accounts and aggressively pursue shillers?

because he is one of the most prolific ebay sellers...who consistently sells high quality vintage...and SHILLING is so prevalent in so many of his auctions...that's why!

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

because he is one of the most prolific ebay sellers...who consistently sells high quality vintage...and SHILLING is so prevalent in so many of his auctions...that's why!

Do you hold him to a higher standard than all other ebay consignors?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Do you hold him to a higher standard than all other ebay consignors?

me personally? NO! I know his auctions to be shilled at an extraordinary degree...so I DO NOT bid on them...ever!

[SAllen2556]

As a collector, I don’t want anyone bidding on a card they don’t want to win, but artificially boosting the price of an eBay auction can occur in other ways besides the seller or the consigner directly shilling the card, so in the long run, what’s really the difference?

Say I’m selling what I believe to be a unique card on eBay. I set my price very high. I notice after I set my price that someone else is now auctioning the very same card and it looks like it will sell for much, much lower than mine, so I place a bid or two to jack up the price in order to protect the value of my card. Wouldn’t that have the same result to the eventual buyer of that card as if it were shilled? Should that also be illegal if it could be proven?

Shilling might as well be legal and accepted as part of the dynamics of an auction. After all, there is a risk, reward factor to the person who shills, and anyone can artificially increase an auction price if they have the guts to do it.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

With eBay's billing records wouldn't these instances be just the thing the FBI is looking for in the sports memorabilia business?

[Rollingstone206]

...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Do ANY ebay consignors do this?

The evidence against Probstein was clearly laid out with all the dots easy to connect (through buyer and seller feedback). There have been many threads about this (like the one I linked in Post #113). I'll tell you what If you can find another eBay dealer shilling their auctions or allowing consignors to shill their auctions, then let me know and I will put just as much effort into drawing attention to them as I did Probstein. Deal?