Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[1952boyntoncollector]

For Argument sake..

lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400

lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..

the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

[packs]

That line of thinking still isn't making sense to me. Your max bid is not the price you're willing to pay. At least for me it isn't. My max bid is the most I want to pay for a card. I'm willing to pay less.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

That line of thinking still isn't making sense to me. Your max bid is not the price you're willing to pay. At least for me it isn't. My max bid is the most I want to pay for a card. I'm willing to pay less.

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less (whether by open and obvious reserve or shady shilling) than the price that it appears you are willing to pay which appears to be the max price you wanted to pay..

[packs]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less (whether by open and obvious reserve or shady shilling) than the price that it appears you are willing to pay which appears to be the max price you wanted to pay..

The seller is willing to sell it for whatever it sells for at auction. That is the virtue of an auction. There is no set price. I really don't understand your POV that shilling up to a max bid is the same as paying what you were willing to pay. You know as well as I do that you set a max bid in the hopes that you'll pay less. So to me your argument doesn't hold water.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less ...

Of course they are, otherwise they would have either put a reserve on the item or had a minimum starting price. It is arguably and act of fraud since the rules of the auction (no reserve, no minimum bid) have changed post facto. Hence one of the reasons shilling auctions is considered an act of fraud in most jurisdictions.

[drcy]

Shilling often is not used as a reserve, but to get the most money out of the bidder above and beyond any so-called reserve.

An example is a consignor in a $9.99 minimum bid auction who is willing to let a card go for $50, a bidder who sets a maximum bid of $75, and the consignor shilling (via bidding and subtracting bids) to get the bidder to pay the $75. If the max bid is $125, the consignor would try to get the bidder to pay that.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by drcy

Shilling often is not used as a reserve, but to get the most money out of the bidder above and beyond any so-called reserve.

An example is a consignor in a $9.99 minimum bid auction who is willing to let a card go for $50, a bidder who sets a maximum bid of $75, and the consignor shilling (via bidding and subtracting bids) to get the bidder to pay the $75. If the max bid is $125, the consignor would try to get the bidder to pay that.

well I would agree there...if someone set a max that is clear to the seller by software or some other method and shilled knowing he would be beaten (and no chance of 'winning') by the poor buyer's offer than I agree that is wrong and would be mad...

I am not mad or think we need to change anything when the shiller is basically bidding to what the reserve should be and is prepared to 'win' the card...he wont 'win' the card if knows someone has a max beyond this hidden reserve...

I just think when the shiller has to relist because 'won' the card or better yet has to pay a buyers premium on his own card because he 'won' that really takes care of it.....eventually he will have to take the lesser price and loose a lot of time and money in the process...

[PowderedH2O]

Two years ago, I sold a large portion of my collection. I sent these items to Rick Probstein, since I did not feel like taking the time to list them myself. The sales were just short of $20k and I took a very close look at the auctions. I could find no examples of shilling on any of my auctions. Now, does this mean that no shilling goes on? Of course not. But, how can Rick be held accountable when he cannot possibly be positive of what is going on at any time? I can tell you that I didn't bid on any of my items. But, I have access to my father's ebay account and there is no way that you could have figured shilling, since at the time (he is deceased now) my dad was bidding on dozens of items every month. I could have easily shilled. I sleep well with a little less money in my pocket knowing that I did things on the up and up.

Rick consigns 10,000+ items a month. How can he also police the activities of every single person that consigns with him? And who is to say that there aren't competitors out there that bid on his auctions just to hurt his reputation?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. In my dealings with Rick, he has been a stand up guy and I've had no issues with his integrity whatsoever. My two cents.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

For Argument sake..



lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400



lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..



the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

A lot of "what if" games and analogies going on in this thread. Instead of seeing who's on what side and proving how wrong shilling is and what it could/does to our hobby, why don't we try to come up with a master plan? First off, maybe Leon could ban him from this board permanently. Second, we could round up 100 or so net54ers and we could all email or contact eBay and gripe about the situation...it might not matter, but at least we aren't stuck in a forum smacking each other around about it.


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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

For Argument sake..

lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400

lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..

the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

this sounds like another...recent thread? And the OP's answer surprised me?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

I try to get it cheaper than 400...if seller says..i am firm on 400...I am in no rush and will wait for my price....then if I am ready to pay 400 I will have to pay 400....