Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% BP they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, the problem of card doctoring, and increasingly, the problem of fake slabs and flips, are much more problematic than shill bidding. But the feds don't seem to see it that way, nor do most collectors.

[hangman62]

I think nobody on this site should bid on ANY Probstein lots anymore....stay away !

I will monitor his auctions and bid accordingly. Just to make sure everything is on the up and up

[glynparson]

Peter said. With doctoring you may get something worth 1-10% of what you paid or in the case of a fake flip 0%. It is rare to get shilled these types of percentages from what is pointed out in these threads. They both suck and should not be tolerated but Peter's examples of fraud screw you much worse than a shill bid

[nolemmings]

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

[sbfinley]

So most people here would check the bidding history of 2,000 daily auctions 5 times a week for impropriety if you owned a major eBay consignment company? No, you wouldn't because you wouldn't have enough time in the day. So you'd pay two (you would need at least two) full time employees to do nothing but check bidding history when in reality many eBayers have multiple accounts, legitimate bidders retract occasionally (blame eBay for allowing it), and new or occasional buyers may have an exceptionally high bid history percentage with you? Now, you've burned $70k in overhead and salary to discover shillers so everyone uncomfortable with the idea of simply bidding what they value the item to be worth to them can now comfortably umm... bid what they value the item to worth to them. That would be an amazing stand to please those prospective customers who would have else boycotted your company on the basis of principle although then you also need to become the CEO of eBay to change the implemented practice of anonymous bidding which allows such shilling chicanery to flourish because those who boycott your company on principle must certainly also boycott eBay for the exact same reasons. Kudos.

[Runscott]

Steve, you know as well as the rest of us, that this is silly. Your first point has been addressed too many times to count. This is like saying police shouldn't fight crime because there will be some crime that goes undetected, or worse, that everyone is a criminal to some extent.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

I specifically said I felt it was an idiotic sentiment. I think you are very intelligent and always enjoy our conversations. You are far from what I think an idiot is. And who knows, maybe my thoughts are idiotic?

[nolemmings]

Sorry Leon, I did not take it personally and am not offended. I just don't believe that even the sentiment, opinion, stance or whatever is idiotic, nor do I find yours to be so (or any expressed in this thread).

I did not mention that I believe sniping helps prevent shilling, and since I often snipe, I obviously prefer to avoid paying my max price. However, as stated by others here, I am far more worried about card alteration and fake slabs then shilling. If any or all of these can be shut down, great, but until then I'll just plod along as best I can.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

I don't know what VCP is. I was commenting on standard auctions as there is no buyers commission on ebay. The seller absorbs all the costs.

Aside - You can 'teach' ethics, the difference between right and wrong. You cannot teach morals, doing what is right versus what is wrong. That is why all law students must pass an ethics class, but not a morals class.

I generally only bid within the last 15 seconds of an auctions end on items I want at at the maximum price I am willing to pay. The price I am willing to pay is always lower than my perceived value of all items that I will resell. On the items I collect I may bid as a collector, but still price it in a similar way. I don't believe I have seen shilling on the auctions I bid on.